Just wanted to share a few things with you all, and see what you think.
1) I've noticed that my jdm gearing is shorter than the usdm gearing - my brother's car (civic h/b w/ usdm h22a4) drops out of VTEC on the 1-2 shift if he doesn't shift after 7500 rpm. I can shift just after 7k and still be in VTEC.
2) It's been my experience that raising compression increases power all across the rev range (I'm running 12:1). What do you guys think? By the way, so far for me, 12:1 is safe for pump gas (92 octane). I've experienced no pinging, knocking, or detonation. Just to be safe though, I'm thinking about a j&s safeguard.
3) My theory on upgraded H22a cams - wait for JUN, period. I'm sure crower is nice and all, but my guess is that JUN cams will be far better, seeing as how they have access to honda blueprints and engineers. Would any one argue that crower could make a better product than Mugen? Probably not, and it's the same deal with JUN. If the b-series motors are any indication - no one can compete with JUN. Check out www.importreview.com and there you'll see that on a modded motor, type-r cams put out 208.3 hp, toda c-specs put out 215.2, and the JUN cams put out 220.9. Yes, that is more than 12 horsepower OVER the type-r cams!!! I know the guy who did the dyno, his name is Jeff. Real cool guy. Him and Dr. Charles at Atomic are definitely legit.
BTW, Andrew Delvard, if you're listening - Jeff is the one that told me about all the differences between a type-s motor and a regular h22a motor.
Yes, I may be biased because I've already ordered the JUN cams, and will have them installed in approximately 2 weeks, but all I'm asking is for you guys to wait and see what my car puts out with the JUN cams. As far as I know, I will be one of the first over here to have them, as they are not officially available in the states yet. I will have them installed the day the cams come in. I'll post the dyno charts, or maybe Jeff will post them on the site too. Also, if you notice, the highest lift crower cams have a ****ty idle by their own admission. If you want to compare quality, the JUN type 3s have nearly stock idle while making more power. If you stick your ear next to the exhaust pipe of my buddy's b16(not recommended
- maybe, just maybe, you can hear the cams lobe slightly. How can JUN do that? Easy, because they have the inside track, and I guarantee you crower isn't going to spend the r&d money necessary to level the playing field, if it can even be leveled. So please, be patient, and hold off on the cams - let me be the guinea pig, and don't waste your hard-earned money, yet.
Wow, I didn't know the JUN cams were out already. First the JRSC, now this! How much were your cams, if you don't mind my asking?
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AIM screename: jsarino
'99 Ficus Green Pearl Type SH:
AEM cai, DC Sports SS header, Mugen exhaust, RH Evo CP-035s, GC/Konis, Spoon bars, and more!
Originally posted by LudesLudesLudes: 1) I've noticed that my jdm gearing is shorter than the usdm gearing - my brother's car (civic h/b w/ usdm h22a4) drops out of VTEC on the 1-2 shift if he doesn't shift after 7500 rpm. I can shift just after 7k and still be in VTEC.
Do you have the specs? The JDM specs I have on the 97+ JDM Preludes show that the gearing is the same. What year is your tranny?
2) It's been my experience that raising compression increases power all across the rev range (I'm running 12:1). What do you guys think? By the way, so far for me, 12:1 is safe for pump gas (92 octane). I've experienced no pinging, knocking, or detonation. Just to be safe though, I'm thinking about a j&s safeguard.
Anyone that has any knowlege of engine dynamics will tell you that increasing static compression will increase power throughout the RPM range. A J&S Ultra is a wise idea. You can find them for about $500 - $550.
Also, detonation isn't always noticable, sometimes your car can be detonating, and you can't hear/feel it.
3) My theory on upgraded H22a cams - wait for JUN, period. I'm sure crower is nice and all, but my guess is that JUN cams will be far better, seeing as how they have access to honda blueprints and engineers. Would any one argue that crower could make a better product than Mugen?
Mugen isn't necessarily the best product. The exhaust is to small for serious NA and FI use, same goes for the header. The header is much, MUCH better than anything else on the market, but the primaries could stand to be a bit longer and the collector should be a bit bigger (but it's supposed to bolt to the stock cat). Probably not, and it's the same deal with JUN. If the b-series motors are any indication - no one can compete with JUN.
I have seen some dyno plots of JUN cams on B series engines that only gained 5 hp. Give me a bit, and I will dig up the link. It's on import review, though. Check out www.importreview.com and there you'll see that on a modded motor, type-r cams put out 208.3 hp, toda c-specs put out 215.2, and the JUN cams put out 220.9. Yes, that is more than 12 horsepower OVER the type-r cams!!! I know the guy who did the dyno, his name is Jeff. Real cool guy. Him and Dr. Charles at Atomic are definitely legit.
BTW, Andrew Delvard, if you're listening - Jeff is the one that told me about all the differences between a type-s motor and a regular h22a motor.
What did he tell you? What exactly are the differences?
Yes, I may be biased because I've already ordered the JUN cams, and will have them installed in approximately 2 weeks, but all I'm asking is for you guys to wait and see what my car puts out with the JUN cams. As far as I know, I will be one of the first over here to have them, as they are not officially available in the states yet. I will have them installed the day the cams come in.
Do you know if the cams were made with any type of headwork in mind? Keep in mind that just tossing parts on a car, and expecting them to gain lots of power is a bit naive. The parts should be engineered to work together. Same goes for headwork.
I'll post the dyno charts, or maybe Jeff will post them on the site too. Also, if you notice, the highest lift crower cams have a ****ty idle by their own admission. If you want to compare quality, the JUN type 3s have nearly stock idle while making more power.
That's easy, just don't modify the low cam lobes too much. VTEC lobes don't affect idle quality.
If you stick your ear next to the exhaust pipe of my buddy's b16(not recommended
- maybe, just maybe, you can hear the cams lobe slightly. How can JUN do that? Easy, because they have the inside track, and I guarantee you crower isn't going to spend the r&d money necessary to level the playing field, if it can even be leveled. So please, be patient, and hold off on the cams - let me be the guinea pig, and don't waste your hard-earned money, yet.
Sure hope those cams are worth the money. How much are they running you, and do you have any specs?
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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by floundericiousFL: you know...I've often thought...with MALKEN being an Admin...a castrated two-legged hampster with a learning disability could run this place better...</font>
I think he means Jeff at Atomic (www.atomicperformance.com).
Oh, 2.2VTEC, from what I have heard about JG stuff (from people who have had heads done by Javier), their work is substandard. He can't even do a head right, I wouldn't trust him for cams, but that's my opinion.
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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
You can look at the 98 TypeR, 165 hp after a valve adjustment, etc. Then 98 TypeR, 174 after JUN Type 1 cams, ECU, header, and cam gears.
9 hp for all that!! Yeah, they are Type 1 cams, but still.......... Perhaps their Type 2 and Type 3 cams put out a lot more power, for that kind of money, I would hope so.
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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
What the **** are you talking about? Do you plan to add anything meaningful to any of the threads that you are replying to? Your reply to the brake pad thread was a bunch of bull**** too.
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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
Jun cams type 1 2 or 3 are the same price..
so wass the point to get type 1 ?
unless u are very conservative..neway
type 3 are supposed to affect the low lobes too..so maybe a type 2 would be more efficient for normal street use..
don't forget that without any ECU tunned for the CAMS..u won't really gain much..
i wouldn't never get any new cams if there wasn't an ECU properly tunned to go with it..
tp get some idea about what Jun can do with a honda engine ...Jun have a b16 strocked to 1.8 that goes to 250HP at 8400rpm i think..
but that's with everything u can put on it
ehhe ( +- 10K $ in parts and time so.. )
they shut down their demo cars site cause they just redid there site but i'll check soon again.. www.junauto.co.jp
i still would get a spoon 12K rpm b16 over for that price ;p hehe
Smoothludey: I am not a quote unquote scientist, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night
Damn, I thought me and my roommates were the only ones who made jokes about that commercial
GEARING: Damn, I can't find the site that listed the jdm 4th gen gear ratios. It was in japanese, but even i can understand the universal language of numbers. I could have sworn I bookmarked it... anyway, here's what I remember - all or most of the gears on the jdm are shorter, but the final drive is slightly longer. In real life, I've noticed (in comparison with my bro's car) that my gearing is definitely shorter in the first three gears because I hit less mph at the same rpm. However, 4th and 5th seem to be about the same - at 80 mph in 5th, I'm just under 4,000 rpm (i.e. 3950 or so).
JEFF AT ATOMIC: All I can say is that he is the man. Sometimes, when I ask him a question, he goes off, and by the time he's done, I don't even remember what I asked
It's like opening pandora's box sometimes. Anyway, this guy was doing prelude motor swaps into civics back in '93. Incidentally, the block from my old h23 is going to be used in a hybrid h22/h23 turbo car that will generate roughly 700hp. They also have a type-r/crv hybrid that revs to 10,000 rpm over there. It's crazy. As far as the type-s goes, he told me that basically the entire head is different - different rocker arms, different valves, springs, retainers, etc. Also, the intake manifold, intake, and header are different. Gearing is shorter also. The valve geometry is also different. 45 degrees instead of 60. I'm going out on a limb here, but do you think that this could explain why Larry (a.k.a. the old one) over at Endyn has noticed that type-s cams sometimes cause damage to h22a rocker arms? I'm not really sure if that's plausible, but tell me what you guys think.
J&S Safeguard - 71dsp, you're absolutely right about not being able to hear detonation sometimes. But, I trust atomic, and they tell me it's not detonating. Dr. Charles over there can hear things other people can't - I swear he's got super hearing. Jeff was dynoing an integra last time I was over there while Dr. Charles was working on my car, and all of a sudden he yells out and tells them to shut off the car - then he says, i think the 3rd spark plug wire is going bad. Jeff changed it, and they made significantly more power on the next run. I don't know how he knows, but he just does. I guess after you've worked on a gajillion motors, you just know those things. Anyway, I decided to take 71dsp's advice and order a J&S safeguard to protect my motor.
JG: Once again 71dsp is absolutely correct. 2.2VTEC - I don't live too far from JG, and trust me JG has a bad rep over here. Lots of people have had headwork done and discovered that their car will no longer hold idle, even though they asked for a streetable port job. I don't know about your exact circumstances, but the cams you are getting are most likely regrinds, and if they are billets, you are forking over almost the same amount of money as the JUN cams, so why would you go JG anyway?
JUN CAMS: 71dsp, yes you are right that modifying the non-vtec lobe only slightly would still provide a good idle. But, if you look at the dyno chart on the JUN type 3s, you'll notice that they are making significantly more power (around 10 hp more in some places) even on the non-vtec lobe. By the way, those numbers you got from importreview are from two different Type-Rs. Look at the dates, the 174hp Type-R was dynoed on 10/16/00, and the 166hp Type-R was dynoed on 1/20/01. So, it cannot be assumed that the JUN type 1s and other mods only added 8hp, as they are different cars. Also, the JUN type 1s are nothing compared to the type 3s. You are correct about parts that are designed to work together - with a really high lift cam though, headwork always helps, and the gains will most definitely be less without headwork. But still, you have to admit 12 hp more than a type-r cam is pretty impressive. That's still around 15-20 hp more than a stock integra cam. Unfortunately, I don't have any specs on the JUN cams - they are pretty secretive about that kind of stuff, and they wouldn't tell me when I called them trying to find out the answer to your question.
Hope you guys find this stuff useful.
Take Care,
LLL
[This message has been edited by LudesLudesLudes (edited April 05, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by LudesLudesLudes (edited April 05, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by LudesLudesLudes (edited April 05, 2001).]
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