[ThatPreludeGuy]

So after agreeing to wait out the metal problem to my next oil change I decided I won't sleep well for 3000 miles and I called the dealer this morning. I talked to the service manager who of course gave the automated response of "some metal in the oil is normal" but after telling him the observations I made said that it sounded like something more serious was going on and they would work on it and get back to me. I asked him to drop the oil pan because for certain anything I found in my waste pan would also show up on the bottom of the oil pan. He said that's true but I never really got him to say he was going to do that. I figure if this is on record now if soemthing goes wrong down the road I should be covered. BTW since the tiny sand like pieces in my waste pan wouldn't stick to a magnet what could they be from? What parts of the motor are aluminum? Thanks guys!

 

[Guest]

Some parts are sand cast (like the intake manifold), and the sand can actually get stuck in the casting sometimes, and come out later on down the road. This is one reason why they paint the inside of domestic blocks.

------------------
Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org

 

[vabeach_lude]

lastnight, some friends and I were doing a b18 swap. I "investigated" the b18's oil pan after I removed it from the block and there was also a b16 block there. So I looked at that one also. I didnt find one bit of metal anywhere. I dont know if you can see the metal, but from what I saw they were clean as can be.

but since THATPRELUDEGUY has this problem, this kind of has me worried.



------------------
14.6 @ 93.6mph with I/E

 

[ThatPreludeGuy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 71dsp:
Some parts are sand cast (like the intake manifold), and the sand can actually get stuck in the casting sometimes, and come out later on down the road. This is one reason why they paint the inside of domestic blocks.

</font>

Get out of here! I mean this stuff really looked like sand! But my motor has over 20K on it, wouldn't this have come out by now? And couldn't that do some damage running through my motor? I really have no clue to what's "normal" and what's not when it comes to finding stuff in the oil. I just remember my VW's NEVER leaving anything in the pan after an oil change. Is there anything else that would come apart or look like this?

BTW my friend that works at Ford said the other crap looked like stuff they find in new Ford motors all the time. Something about having casting burs in the oil passages and after a while they get worn off or knocked off and wind up coming out in the oil? Any insight to this Billy?

 

[ThatPreludeGuy]

Well for certain I'm going to spring for the magentic plug set from Spoon so I can keep an eye on this for the next time. I always check my oil pan for stuff like this and like I said in my VW's which I had FIVE and over 100K miles between them never once did I find anything metal. I can remember running one fo them short at least a quart for about three weeks and still no metal in the oil. I only use Mobil 1 & OEM filters and I change my oil at the worse case scenario just before 4k. Mostly around 3000-3500 mark. I check the oil every week and add as necessary so I know it's not me neglecting the car.

 

[99prelude]

very interesting...I've got the spoon plugs coming in so I can't wait to see if my engine has this...

 

[marcucci]

If it's shiny metal bits and they don't stick to the magnet they'd have to be Al. I think our pistons are forged steel and not Al. The rings should be chrome or similar, that might be it. Other than that, maybe pieces of metal around bearings or journals? All the bearing surfaces should be hardened steel.

Also I'd like to point out that our engine isn't sand cast. From what I've read, the closed-deck versions were sand cast. The open decks were not. The sand cast blocks (due to the imprecise nature of sand casting) were stopped due to a high reject rate. The open decks were done w/some other method (can't remember) like the injection forging or whatnot that allowed them to do more complex shapes (like the open deck) with low reject rate (and cheaply).

If it was sand, it shouldn't be shiny.

 

[ThatPreludeGuy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by marcucci:


If it was sand, it shouldn't be shiny. </font>

Well the bits where very "sand like" but it's hard to tell when everything was soaked in oil. They seemed to be metal but they were so small I could be wrong. Here's one thing my friend brought up to me a few minutes ago. For a couple of months I didn't have my lower splash gueard on and I have a Iceman CAI. I park in a VERY dirty parking lot everyday, is it possible I have a hole in my air filter and I'm sucking some sand dirt up through the intake? I checked to make sure the K&N was on it but maybe there's some sort of hole in it? Next time I do an oil change I'll take some pics of the waste pan and metal and see what the experts think.

 

[marcucci]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by THATPRELUDEGUY:
- snip- For a couple of months I didn't have my lower splash gueard on and I have a Iceman CAI. I park in a VERY dirty parking lot everyday, is it possible I have a hole in my air filter and I'm sucking some sand dirt up through the intake? I checked to make sure the K&N was on it but maybe there's some sort of hole in it? Next time I do an oil change I'll take some pics of the waste pan and metal and see what the experts think. </font>

I'd certainly check!!! It's a possibility, though I think it's slim. I'd think it more likely that the filter fell off (but I still think THAT's unlikely).

I'm afraid you won't really be able to tell (unless your filter is gone) w/o a complete teardown.

 

[ThatPreludeGuy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by marcucci:
I'm afraid you won't really be able to tell (unless your filter is gone) w/o a complete teardown. </font>

Now if my dealer drops my oil pan and finds crap in it what's the next plan of attack? I mean do you think they'll get me a new complete short block or do they actually try and rebuild the motor? I'm not big on having a dealer "try" to rebuild my motor but that might be the cost effective way for them to take care of this. I'm SOOOOOO not happy about the way this is most likely going to turn out. I mean there really is no good way for this to turn out is there? Metal in the motor oil = way bad for the car!

 

[Guest]

Have someone build you a race engine for 5 times what you originally set out to spend, change specs a few times, buy some parts, then sell them to get better parts, get custom parts made.......

Eh, you get the picture...

------------------
Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org

 

[Guest]

The blocks are no longer sand cast, but I believe the intake manifolds and heads are, aren't they?

------------------
Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org

 

[Guest]

I know the oil pan and tranny halves are die cast. Could the head by die cast?

------------------
Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org

 

[ThatPreludeGuy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 71dsp:
Have someone build you a race engine for 5 times what you originally set out to spend, change specs a few times, buy some parts, then sell them to get better parts, get custom parts made.......

Eh, you get the picture...

</font>

I get the picture but I'm definitely NOT going that route. This is my ONLY car and I don't have access to another car so I'm up against the wall. I'm jsut waiting to here what line of BS the dealer gives me. I'm betting it goes like this "Well we drained the oil and didn't find anything in it so we went ahead and did a motor flush and that was ok as well. That'll be $100 please!" At which point they'll wish I never bought my car there.

If the oil pump gears were going could that gives me metal like I was describing? I just ask because I remember a few people saying that it's one of the weak links in our motors.

 

[Guest]

I can't say with any authority if the oil pump could be the culprit or not, but it couldn't hurt to pull it and see.

As for having a second car, you guys know how long my car has been down. I just bought a second car 3 1/2 weeks ago. Amy let me borrow her car! She used her parents' car. Geez, I was sooooo lucky. I probably drove her car for 5 months. I know what you mean though. I really hated not having my car. Although, now I am glad since I have a daily driver, I can dedicate my car to the track (if I ever get it running again!).

------------------
Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org

 

[marcucci]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by THATPRELUDEGUY:
- snip -
If the oil pump gears were going could that gives me metal like I was describing? I just ask because I remember a few people saying that it's one of the weak links in our motors.</font>

Personally I doubt you will find anything in the pan, unless dropping it allows you to see something up in the motor that's wrong (like a spun bearing). If the stuff isn't steel (doesn't stick to a magnet), then I don't think you're going to find much.

I'd be looking at the bearings and the oil pump. I highly doubt that if anything in the engine is still sand cast that there would have been any sand in it after assembly. I'd be seriously looking at the air filter (make sure it isn't holey), maybe send an oil sample off to a lab for analysis (Honda should be able to do this for you), and possibly even tear down the oil filter and see what's in it.

 

[ThatPreludeGuy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by marcucci:
Personally I doubt you will find anything in the pan, unless dropping it allows you to see something up in the motor that's wrong (like a spun bearing). If the stuff isn't steel (doesn't stick to a magnet), then I don't think you're going to find much.

I'd be looking at the bearings and the oil pump. I highly doubt that if anything in the engine is still sand cast that there would have been any sand in it after assembly. I'd be seriously looking at the air filter (make sure it isn't holey), maybe send an oil sample off to a lab for analysis (Honda should be able to do this for you), and possibly even tear down the oil filter and see what's in it. </font>

Well the airfilter was on for sure, whether it has tears in it or not I can't say. As for the oil pan, I couldn't see all of the crap I found coming out with the oil. I mean if it was in the waste pan wouldn't it stand to reason that there would be junk in the bottom of the oil pan as well? However I HIGHLY doubt the dealer will go through that effort. I still say they drain the oil claim to see nothing and replace it with regular oil and try to charge me for it. We cut the old filter apart the other night and we basically left a lot of stuff on it from cutting the case. It was tough to tell if there was anything awful in it. We did find a few pieces of what looked to be the larger metal pieces that did stick to the magnet, but not so many that I even considered bringing it to them.

I wish I knew more about engine break ins and the amount of metal and miles that are "normal". I don't doubt that in the break in process you get some metal in your oil. If Honda engines are so well designed it could take alot longer to fully break in before some crappy motor like a Ford Escort. At least if I knew from a trusted source that this stuff I'm finding is OK I'd feel much better.

 

[marcucci]

Well, if you have him drain the oil and he finds metal, he better damn well tear the engine down (assuming you're under warrant). Before that I'd take a seriously hard look at the filter and make sure it was nothing else.

The particles or whatever will be suspended in the oil. I doubt there would be much left in the pan other than what oil is left. They might find some, but honestly you'd be better off running the engine for a while with fresh oil, then draining it hot (while straining with some cheese cloth). I'd also be cracking that oil filter open, if you're getting this crap past the filter...

That brings up an interesting point. What kind of oil filters do you use? I just got done breaking open 8 different filters and comparing them. If you're getting filters that are made in the US or Canada, I'd stop using them- they are ****. The Canadian ones are FRAM knock-offs and the US ones look like the JDM but have the s**tiest filter material I've seen in my life. I'll have a complete writeup on NTPOG, but I can tell you right now you should be using STP, Bosch, Deutsch or Mobil 1.

 

[ThatPreludeGuy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by marcucci:
Well, if you have him drain the oil and he finds metal, he better damn well tear the engine down (assuming you're under warrant). Before that I'd take a seriously hard look at the filter and make sure it was nothing else.

The particles or whatever will be suspended in the oil. I doubt there would be much left in the pan other than what oil is left. They might find some, but honestly you'd be better off running the engine for a while with fresh oil, then draining it hot (while straining with some cheese cloth). I'd also be cracking that oil filter open, if you're getting this crap past the filter...

That brings up an interesting point. What kind of oil filters do you use? I just got done breaking open 8 different filters and comparing them. If you're getting filters that are made in the US or Canada, I'd stop using them- they are ****. The Canadian ones are FRAM knock-offs and the US ones look like the JDM but have the s**tiest filter material I've seen in my life. I'll have a complete writeup on NTPOG, but I can tell you right now you should be using STP, Bosch, Deutsch or Mobil 1. </font>

I suppose your right about that crap being suspended in the oil but I still think there would be some remnants in the oil pan. I still believe that the dealer wont pull the pan and if they do they "wont"

see anything in it!

Now for filters I'm using OEM filters I get from either H-A accesories.com or hparts.com. I tore it apart the other night but I'll check it out better tonight to make sure. To be honest I got no clue what a good filter media would look like compared to bad media? If you have some pics of the other filters let me know. I can get Mobil 1 fitlers pretty easily so for my next oil change I'll use on of those to be certain. When it comes to filters it's like oil to me, $3 or $10 each doesn't matter as long as it's working as good as it can. Thanks for the tip on the US filters...I'll give them to my friend for his beater Integra