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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Oops, I forgot that part! Yeah, #5 vs. #1.

Going from top to bottom.
Pic1: #1 on bottom, #5 on top
Pic2: #1 on bottom, #5 on top
Pic3: #1 on bottom, #5 on top
Pic4: #1 on left, #5 on right
Pic5: #1 on right, #5 on left



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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
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ok, its obvious that i dont know much about bearings but can u explain what exactly youre trying to show here?

like point out certain defects or wear and stuff between them? i honestly cant see much of a difference and cant tell which one has the wear... is it just those little horizontal lines?

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Crystal Blue 99' SS Lude (born on 7/1/99)~when i got it
PERFORMANCE MODS:
-AEM CAI (silver)-DC Sports CC 4-2-1 Headers
-Tanabe Racing Medalion -UR pulleys SS (3 piece)
-Apexi V-AFC -Autometer A/F gauge -Autometer EGT gauge -zex kit w/ plugs running 55 shots -NOS purge kit *no more performance mods will be added*
NON-PERFORMANCE:
-Panasonic CQ-DF800U
screen name: CBFORMULA

[This message has been edited by Ng Luder (edited April 13, 2001).]
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ng Luder:
ok, its obvious that i dont know much about bearings but can u explain what exactly youre trying to show here?

like point out certain defects or wear and stuff between them? i honestly cant see much of a difference and cant tell which one has the wear... is it just those little horizontal lines?
</font>
Do you know much about an engine? I am not sure exactly where to start.

Ideally the crank shouldn't touch the bearings when the engine is running. The crank should "ride" on a thin layer of oil between the bearing and the crank. Make sense? So, now can you see the problem with the pictures above? Can you see the difference between the #1 and #5 bearings? The #1 bearing has scoring in it that's deep enough to catch a finger nail. That means that the crank was contacting the bearing quite a bit. That's not good. Just think about it some.

Can you see that if that's the wear after 30k miles, can you imagine what the bearings would look like after 100k miles?

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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
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you should probably try to explain what kind of damage would result from scored bearings over the long run. I myself do not know too much and for the sake of humility won't say anything
 

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Hey 71dsp,


I thought your Crank Pulleys weren't from UR??? If its not from UR then why put the heat on them on their Pulleys? I am not trying to flame here but its just not fair to Unorthodox that they are getting heated for this when their product weren't even the cause of the wear in the first place. Just curious, I thought that your pulley was UR thats why I got scared with mine but I just read the other post over and found out that it wasn't UR. I am still behind UR and their product because they do make good quality product. I would say comparing your Crank Pulley to UR's Pulley is like buying a Mugen Bumper and getting a Replica. They both look the same but one is built with much higher quality and precision! Personally I just don't think its fair for Unorthodox for getting flamed like this!!!



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2000 Prelude Type SH
Premium Pearl White

MODS: AEM CAI, DC Header, Greddy PE Exhaust, Vitek Wires, AEM CamGears, AEM TruPwr Pulleys, UR Crank Pulley, Apexi V-AFC, ACT XT Clutch, DC ShortShift Adaptor, ZEX 55 Shot Nitrous

V-Spec Coilovers, DC Fr. Upper Strut Bar, CarbonFiber Hood, OEM Bodykit, 17" Nippon Racing/NittoNT555ZRs, Type S shiftknob........
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SH22A4:
Hey 71dsp,
I thought your Crank Pulleys weren't from UR??? If its not from UR then why put the heat on them on their Pulleys? I am not trying to flame here but its just not fair to Unorthodox that they are getting heated for this when their product weren't even the cause of the wear in the first place. Just curious, I thought that your pulley was UR thats why I got scared with mine but I just read the other post over and found out that it wasn't UR. I am still behind UR and their product because they do make good quality product. I would say comparing your Crank Pulley to UR's Pulley is like buying a Mugen Bumper and getting a Replica. They both look the same but one is built with much higher quality and precision! Personally I just don't think its fair for Unorthodox for getting flamed like this!!!
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His was not a Unorthadox, but rather a solid crank pulley of similar design.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SH22A4:
Hey 71dsp,

I thought your Crank Pulleys weren't from UR??? If its not from UR then why put the heat on them on their Pulleys? I am not trying to flame here but its just not fair to Unorthodox that they are getting heated for this when their product weren't even the cause of the wear in the first place. Just curious, I thought that your pulley was UR thats why I got scared with mine but I just read the other post over and found out that it wasn't UR. I am still behind UR and their product because they do make good quality product. I would say comparing your Crank Pulley to UR's Pulley is like buying a Mugen Bumper and getting a Replica. They both look the same but one is built with much higher quality and precision! Personally I just don't think its fair for Unorthodox for getting flamed like this!!!
</font>
Okay, first off, if you have been following this debate, I never said anything about UR specifically. I talked about solid crank underdrive pulleys. UR happens to fall in this category, but I never singled them out. Shawn of UR brought it upon himself by posting on this public forum. Never once did I contact to him prior to his post. So before you go accusing me of anything, you should get your facts straight.

I have said everything that I am going to say about this product. I have asked UR numerous times for any type of data to support his claims (whether it's engineering data, customer testimonials, or engine builder contacts). He has e-mailed me back numerous times, however, he has failed to address this issue. I also offered to help pay half of an informal experiment to shed some light on this issue, and again, UR has not responded to my numerous offers.

Comparing a crank pulley to a bumper is quite a naive comparison. A pulley is a machined part, that is made out of billet material. There is not "magical" secret to making solid crank pulleys. All one needs to do is have the dimensions. The material is quite homogeneous, so the pulley itself will be quite balanced straight from the lathe.

I also asked UR for their critical tolerance (balance, concentricity, and dimension tolerances), again, they have not responded to my inquires.

UR brought this on themselves. I never flamed UR once before Shawn came here and posted his reply about Dinan's article. Please keep your facts straight next time.

Oh, one other thing that you will notice if you bother to read any of the relevant material I have posted about this subject, the problem is NOT specifically UR's pulley, but the fact that it is a solid crank pulley (i.e. it has no damper integrated into the pulley).

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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 99Prelude_LC:
you should probably try to explain what kind of damage would result from scored bearings over the long run. I myself do not know too much and for the sake of humility won't say anything
</font>
Think about it. If the crank is bouncing around and hitting the bearings, think about what that will do over the long run. It's probably not too good for the bearings, crank, rod bearings, oil pump, etc.

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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SH22A4:
Hey 71dsp,


I thought your Crank Pulleys weren't from UR??? If its not from UR then why put the heat on them on their Pulleys? I am not trying to flame here but its just not fair to Unorthodox that they are getting heated for this when their product weren't even the cause of the wear in the first place. Just curious, I thought that your pulley was UR thats why I got scared with mine but I just read the other post over and found out that it wasn't UR. I am still behind UR and their product because they do make good quality product. I would say comparing your Crank Pulley to UR's Pulley is like buying a Mugen Bumper and getting a Replica. They both look the same but one is built with much higher quality and precision! Personally I just don't think its fair for Unorthodox for getting flamed like this!!!
</font>
To quote Larry Widmer:

The lessons I learned best are the ones that cost me the most.



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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
 

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Those pics are scary... Should I be worried with the AEM Pulleys? I don't have the crank pulley. Seeing pictures of scraped up motors parts and the word 'pulleys' in the same post makes me want to take them off. Am I over reacting?

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-Adam
'91 Honda Civic & '00 5spd base Prelude
 

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Here I go debating again.


They look like typical spun bearings, can't tell what caused the failure.

I have seen the same looking grooves in bad motors that were equipped with the stock crank. So is there a flaw in the stock crank as well?

Next time I go to KMS I will get some pics of spun bearings from motors with the stock crank pulley. They seem to be a weak link.

There are always plenty of bad motors there that you can observe, since ppl decide to get internal work, while getting it re-built.

If I recall correctly RCR's brother spun a bearing in his H23, he also has the stock pulley.

[This message has been edited by VeeTec (edited April 13, 2001).]
 

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Another issue I would like to bring up is there seem to be a number of stress type bolt failures on the rod bolts, which over time can fail causing the same result.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by VeeTec:
Here I go debating again.


They look like typical spun bearings, can't tell what caused the failure.

I have seen the same looking grooves in bad motors that were equipped with the stock crank. So is there a flaw in the stock crank as well?

Next time I go to KMS I will get some pics of spun bearings from motors with the stock crank pulley. They seem to be a weak link.

There are always plenty of bad motors there that you can observe, since ppl decide to get internal work, while getting it re-built.

If I recall correctly RCR's brother spun a bearing in his H23, he also has the stock pulley.

[This message has been edited by VeeTec (edited April 13, 2001).]
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You know, you say that this looks like a typical spun bearing, but what you don't realize is that the bottom end DID NOT FAIL. This engine was not torn apart because of a failure. The bottom end was torn apart because I had gouged the deck of the block reinstalling the head a few months back. I decided to have the block decked. In order to do so, everything must be removed, and that's when the damage was found.

The bearings were NOT spun.

Also, the engine did not make any funny noises, it did not burn oil, etc. etc. The bottom end did not get torn down because of a failure.

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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by VeeTec:
Another issue I would like to bring up is there seem to be a number of stress type bolt failures on the rod bolts, which over time can fail causing the same result.
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Again, the rods were perfectly fine. The rod bolts were perfectly fine.

Please give us some pictures of engine failures with these "typical" H22 problems.

Also, please describe to me what the bearings look like going from #5 to #1. Does the damage go along a gradient or is the damage consistent across the five bearings?

I don't know what I have to say to you to impress upon you that the engine DID NOT FAIL. THIS IS NOT THE RESULT OF ENGINE FAILURE.

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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mr Ludecrs:
Those pics are scary... Should I be worried with the AEM Pulleys? I don't have the crank pulley. Seeing pictures of scraped up motors parts and the word 'pulleys' in the same post makes me want to take them off. Am I over reacting?
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Don't worry about AEM pulleys, this is only relevant to solid crank pulleys.

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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by VeeTec:
I have seen the same looking grooves in bad motors that were equipped with the stock crank. So is there a flaw in the stock crank as well?

Next time I go to KMS I will get some pics of spun bearings from motors with the stock crank pulley. They seem to be a weak link.

[This message has been edited by VeeTec (edited April 13, 2001).]
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Are you asking if there is a problem with the stock crank pulley or the stock crank itself? My stock crank was only slightly damaged, and just required a little bit of polishing.

What is KMS contact info? Could I get a name and number from you?

All these failures you see, what causes the failures? What kind of maintenance was done? How were the cars driven? Under what conditions did the engine fail?

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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
 
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