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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, Todd, even though we discussed this on the mailing list, i'm still not at ease with my setup. Here are a couple points I've pondered:

A) When I first got my springs/shocks installed, the local shop had the Koni's at the stock setting. With the race springs installed, the car was dropped 2.25" and the wheels were tucked just inside the fender. It was like this for a week, and I never noticed any rubbign whatsoever.
Now the c-clips are at the highest, so i've thankfully lost that ricer look and gained streetability (i'm at 1.75"). When I installed one of the BFG's (mounted on teh stock rim) on the front wheel, the looked like it was lowered originally, with the tire sticking inside the fender. Now, here's my point (finally): given the same tire to fender distance as the original suspension modification, I shouldn't necessarily be worried about rubbing, right?

B) If it does rub, can you comment on why? Is it due to the tire contacting the inside fender before the shock absorber reaches the bump stop? Other reasons? Also, where is the rubbing, specifically, that you talked about? On the tread itself, on the sidewall?

Todd, the only reason i ask is that there's an upcoming autocross this sunday, and I'd really like to give it a go. I figure if the rubbing is only marginal, then there's not that much of a problem. If its serious, then I'll play it safe.

Sorry for making you read through all this crap. Much thanks in advance.

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'98 White Prelude
Neuspeed Race Springs
Koni Adj Shocks
Neuspeed Front Strut Bar
Removed Resonator
DC Sports Ceramic Headers
Rear ST Sway Bar
JRSC sitting on garage floor
Trying to sell my 17" SSR's
 

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No prob.

A) It looks like it did originally b/c you now have more rubber on top of the rim, approx .05 * 205mm = 10.25mm or .4". Even though you may have been .25 or .5" lower than you are now (I understand what you mean about how much "tire" you have in the wheel well), I think the big thing you are missing is the increased suspension travel (see my comments below).

B) Tire contacting the unit body and splash guard (see below).

Comments:
I only say all this out of experience, I went through what I think you're about to go through. With Eibachs (1.5" drop, 20% stiffer than stock) or Tanabes (1" drop, 30% stiffer than stock) and Konis I had the same problem. When running a larger tire than stock (either the 205/55 16 or 225/50 16) I rubbed at the track. I NEVER rubbed on the street. EVER. When I took it to the track, though, in very hard corners where I was at the end of suspension travel, and where I had some delflection and went almost to "lock," I had a LOT of rubbing. It depended on the tire- with 205/55's it was the top of the tire contacting the unit body and the splash guard. With the 225/50's it was the shoulder of the tire contacting the unit bodya nd splash guard, and also the inside of the wheel well (towards the engine).

All I can say is that you probably didn't see rubbing on the street since you'd not deflecting as much or as violently. I recently switched to a 450/380 #/in GC/Koni setup with about 1.25" lowering. I still rubbed, but just barely. I have yet to try but I think raising to 1" drop will probably fix the problem.

Even with marginal rubbing, it affects handling. It disrupts travel and upsets the balance of the car when cornering. I wish you luck but I think the rubbing is going to be too much for you.

A few notes:
- The above statements are all based on stock rim width and offset (stock rims).
- I never rubbed in back, even with the 1.5" drop and crappy crappy low spring rate of Eibachs and the fat tires on the stock rims.
- I recently ran Billy's Kosei K1's (15x7's) with 225/50 15's on them. Even with the decreased offset (wider stance) I didn't rub (with my 1.25" drop), though they did burn off a little piece of plastic that Billy said was normal. I can't tell you how good the car felt- the gearing was better, better acceleration, more grip (I was shocked) and the tires wore less. Honestly, as a former "16 incher" I'm thinking 15" are the ONLY way to go for autocrossing. Maybe even for the track.

Hope that helps. Sorry to be so negative about this, but I honestly can't see how you won't rub at the track unless you get smaller wheels, stiffer springs, or raise the car back to stock height.

Anyone want to buy a set of stock 5g wheels with race rubber on them? : )
 

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Todd, just curious:

You said you ran 205/55 and 225/50 on stock rims and never rubbed on the street. That's great news to me, because I wanna upgrade next time.

Q: Did the car ride any smoother? handle any better? Was one tire better than the other? Were either better than stock? How about road noise, was it louder, quieter, or about the same?

Sorry so many questions, but nobody I've asked seems to know. And most people go to 17" rims or larger, so there's no comparison.

Thanx!
 

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One other thing, thanks for the oil filter review! I haven't read it all yet, but I've got it up in a background window. I'll get to it later. Looks really good!

------------------
My new mechanic
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Pete:
- snip-

Q: Did the car ride any smoother? handle any better? Was one tire better than the other? Were either better than stock? How about road noise, was it louder, quieter, or about the same?

Sorry so many questions, but nobody I've asked seems to know. And most people go to 17" rims or larger, so there's no comparison.

Thanx!
</font>
No, yes, what?, yes and "it depends." Any more questions?

Seriously... the car didn't seem any "smoother." It didn't "handle" better though it had more grip with the 225's. Worth it? I can't say that it really was with the stock rim width. With 7" rims? Yes, but that's also based on a 15" rim and wider offset than stock (which may be most of that improvement). The tires I've run were Toyo Proxes RA1's (205/55) and Kumho Victoracer V700s (225/50). The Kumho has slightly more traction but wears faster.

I'm running Dunlop SPW-10s n the stock rims now. They're loud as hell. It's hard to tell what a tire will sound like, you'll just have to get feedback from the shop or tirerack.com.

Oh, and glad you like the filter page : ) Put a lot of work into it!
 

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If you're thinking of going to 205/55 or 225/50 on the street, I think the 205 is probably a better choice. A 225 is just too wide for a 6.5" rim. If you have an R compound tire with the stiff sidewall, you can get away with it, but for a street tire's relatively soft sidewall, it's not a good thing. The bead gets compressed and you dont get a full contact patch. To compensate, you run higher pressures, which end up being more uncomfortable on the street, thus defeating the whole point of switching to a taller sidewall.

My 225/50/16 Kumho V700's on stock wheels on stock suspension (well, not stock, since I had Koni's, but it was stock ride height) would rub at the rear if there was a full load in the trunk.
 

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If you want 225 width on a street tire, it's better to go with 225/45-16 since that's closer to stock diameter (actually almost exactly the same), so less chance of rubbing. And several people have them on the stock rims, some tires might "fit" better on 6.5 than others, maybe someone with this setup can confirm which.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gLudeous:
If you want 225 width on a street tire, it's better to go with 225/45-16 since that's closer to stock diameter (actually almost exactly the same), so less chance of rubbing. And several people have them on the stock rims, some tires might "fit" better on 6.5 than others, maybe someone with this setup can confirm which. </font>
I agree. What I meant to say is that my Dunlops (on factory rims) are 225/45 16s. I disagree that 225 is too wide for a 6.5- it's too wide to take full advantage of the 225 section width, but I've had LESS problems with the bead and leakage on 225/6.5 than with 205's (both sets of 205's I've had leaked). The Dunlops and V700s don't. I can say, though, that the flatter contact patch makes a big difference... I'd recommend 7's for that reason.
 

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Thanks for the xtra info everybody. I'm not worried about rubbing because I'll never lower the car. I'm after a smoother, quieter ride and better wet traction if possible. The car already corners better than anything I've ever owned (except the Saleen mustang in '89) so I don't wanna mess with the stock suspension. Larger wheel diameter will help fix the faulty speedometer readings, too.

Todd, I finally read your review. Very nicely done, but you've scared the HELL out of me. I bought a batch of OEM filters from HParts.com with Japanese writing on them. I hope they're legit. I've been running over 5000 miles between changes on Mobil-1. Not a good feeling I have right now...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks, marcucci, remind me to buy you a drink whenever I stop by Texas!


Ok, well thanks for letting me obtain a full refund from tirerack, as I will hopefully have the tires dismounted from the stock rims, instead of whopping some nice Porsche @ss. This still leaves me with my [email protected] concrete scorchers (yeah, i know, i like rice too!) for the autocross. This'll probably lower the price on my tires and maybe someones gonna buy them so i can buy a pair of 15" k1's.

On the other hand, I was thinking I could attempt to find a really high-rate spring (i'm don't care about ride quality - where i live, the roads are actually pretty smooth) that doesn't lower the car much -- that's not asking for much, now, is it?

Option A) So.....where do i buy custom or special springs? That way i'd have a super high-rate (or at least one that prevents me from rubbing) that could be mounted on a higher koni setting.

Option B) Spend ~$120 for a set of neuspeed/eibach "regular" springs, with decent spring rate (less than my neuspeed race springs, of course), but could be mounted on a high koni setting as well, netting me a drop of only ~1". Hopefully this dials out most rubbing....yet kills performance, hence option A being nicer here.

Option C) Go for GC's and find some good high-rate springs for both performance and EASY height adjustability.

I've already made an error buy purchasing race tires, along with a complete set of "street" wheels/tires....i'd like to deviate as little as possible from my current setup as it is. Sigh....any suggestions?

Again, much thanks for input and for reading my posts.

------------------

'98 White Prelude
Neuspeed Race Springs
Koni Adj Shocks
Neuspeed Front Strut Bar
Removed Resonator
DC Sports Ceramic Headers
Rear ST Sway Bar
JRSC sitting on garage floor
Trying to sell my 17" SSR's
 

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iranman, how come you're selling your Integrals? Too plain? I was considering a set of GT1s.

I've only seen one Lude with GT1s and it looked awesome!
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by iranman:
Thanks, marcucci, remind me to buy you a drink whenever I stop by Texas!

</font>
You're welcome to buy me a drink anytime!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Option A) So.....where do i buy custom or special springs? That way i'd have a super high-rate (or at least one that prevents me from rubbing) that could be mounted on a higher koni setting.
</font>
Ground Controls. I'd suggest a GC coilover set and Koni or KYB AGX adjustable struts. It's all expensive as hell new, but VERY worth it. You can pick your spring rate, have adjustable ride height, and adjust the struts softer for the street. Honestly, with 225-wide tires, I'd recommend the 450/380 #/in setup I have (or stiffer) and 1.5" drop or less. I think that's the only way you can keep from rubbing.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Option B) Spend ~$120 for a set of neuspeed/eibach "regular" springs, with decent spring rate (less than my neuspeed race springs, of course), but could be mounted on a high koni setting as well, netting me a drop of only ~1". Hopefully this dials out most rubbing....yet kills performance, hence option A being nicer here.
Only problem is that Koni's don't allow you to raise the springs. You can lower with them but not raise- so if you have a 1" or 1.5" drop spring, that's as high as you can go. The Konis will only allow you to lower them more.

You could go with something like a Tanabe Super H, which is stiffer than stock and only lowers 1". I ran them until I just HAD to go with something more stiff. With 15" wheels and 225 tires, you *shouldn't* rub with this combo. It's the only oversize tire/aftermarket spring (but not coilover) setup I know of that won't rub.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Option C) Go for GC's and find some good high-rate springs for both performance and EASY height adjustability.
I seriously think this will be the only think that will make you happy (if you're serious about autocrossing). It's the only thing that made me happy.

I'm about to sell my GC/Koni coilover setup and my old Tanabe Super H springs. If you think you might be interested in buying, email me offline. I'd be willing to make you a good deal on one or the other : )

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I've already made an error buy purchasing race tires, along with a complete set of "street" wheels/tires....i'd like to deviate as little as possible from my current setup as it is. Sigh....any suggestions?
With the wheels you have (if you are dedicated to keeping them), I'd go for a GC setup. Something like the Tanabes will rub minimally, but you'll still rub. You can live with it (I did, for a while) but if you're swapping out springs again I'd suggest doing it with a GC setup of some kind. I still recommend the smaller wheels, but at least the GCs would allow you to eliminate the rubbing.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Again, much thanks for input and for reading my posts.
No prob, it's what we're all here for!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thewedge3:
iranman, how come you're selling your Integrals? Too plain? I was considering a set of GT1s.

I've only seen one Lude with GT1s and it looked awesome!
</font>
Because my Integrals were supposed to be my daily driver wheels, while my stockers (fitted w/ BFG r1's) were kept for the track. Now that my BFG's are gonna rub (as noted by Mr. Marcucci), I need to sell them, sell my integrals, buy street tires for the tock rims, and buy a set of kosei k1's for the track. Whew!

Or, I could keep both sets of wheels and tires, and buy Todd's GC setup, fit it with some nice springs (I wonder if my neuspeed springs will fit it?), keep it nice and decent for the street, and jack it up to only ~1" low on the track so nothing rubs. Decisions, decisions, decisions....and too little time or money to make good ones too!

LESSON LEARNED: DO HEAVY (not just minimal) RESEARCH BEFORE CHANGING ANYTHING!!!


Todd, I'd be happy to purchase your GC setup, just the coilover sleeve itself: i already have the koni yellows.

And what did you mean by the koni's not letting you "raise the springs?" Isn't that what the adjustable spring perchers are for? You move it up - car gets higher (and lowers less than the stated drop rating); you move it down, car gets lower (and you drop your car lower than what the srping manufaturer rated).

Email me when you're going to sell them. Believe me, I'm interested!



------------------

'98 White Prelude
Neuspeed Race Springs
Koni Adj Shocks
Neuspeed Front Strut Bar
Removed Resonator
DC Sports Ceramic Headers
Rear ST Sway Bar
JRSC sitting on garage floor
Trying to sell my 17" SSR's

[This message has been edited by iranman (edited April 25, 2001).]
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by iranman:
Todd, I'd be happy to purchase your GC setup, just the coilover sleeve itself: i already have the koni yellows.
</font>
I'll email you offline, I'll be doing it soon. I've got a bunch of other stuff, I'll give you first crack at the lot.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
And what did you mean by the koni's not letting you "raise the springs?" Isn't that what the adjustable spring perchers are for? You move it up - car gets higher (and lowers less than the stated drop rating); you move it down, car gets lower (and you drop your car lower than what the srping manufaturer rated).
The Konis were designed for stock springs- stock SCCA classes allow you to change struts, so (I believe) the intention of Koni was to make an improved strut that will allow you to lower the car and stiffen the suspension w/o needing an aftermarket spring. At least that's my take on it.

I think Koni should make another setting to raise them, but unfortunately they don't. You can buy a little height with washers placed on the top of the strut under the perch, but not much (maybe 1/4" to 1/2" max). I wouldn't recommend any more than that. I did this to raise the front of my car when I had Super H's... raised it about 1/4" to get a little more even weight distribution.

The Konis for our car are intended to lower springs... you can't raise them. Sorry, it's just the way they are
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Todd, i have ABSOLUTELY no clue as to what you're referring to!

On my front koni's I have 5 settings:

Center, two above, and two below. That equals to .25" higher than spring rating, and .25" below spring rating.

In the rear i have three: center, one above, and one below.

Could it be that these are the APS koni's people are talking about?
 
G

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by iranman:
Todd, i have ABSOLUTELY no clue as to what you're referring to!

On my front koni's I have 5 settings:

Center, two above, and two below. That equals to .25" higher than spring rating, and .25" below spring rating.

In the rear i have three: center, one above, and one below.

Could it be that these are the APS koni's people are talking about?
</font>
Those are the Neuspeed/APS Konis that you have. Mine are the same. You can see a comparison on our webpage: www.ntpog.org under reviews.

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Billy
North Texas Prelude Owners Group
www.ntpog.org
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 71dsp:
Those are the Neuspeed/APS Konis that you have. Mine are the same. You can see a comparison on our webpage: www.ntpog.org under reviews.

</font>
Thanks for clearing that up, Billy.

Oh, and btw, for all those who care, neuspeed "race" springs are rated at 400/345.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by iranman:
Thanks for clearing that up, Billy.

Oh, and btw, for all those who care, neuspeed "race" springs are rated at 400/345.
</font>
OK then... I have no idea how those work in terms of raising the car (I have the "others" and can't raise it). If you can raise up to a 1" drop (that's what, 1" or 1.5" over what you have?) you should be OK. That spring rate is pretty damn stiff for an aftermarket lowering spring.

I'd suggest trying that first. With a 1" drop or less and that spring rate you might not rub (with the big tires). I'd say try that, then go with the GC setup if you still rub. Oh, and on the strut- the distance you move the c-clip is *roughly* the distance you raise/lower the car. I think it's a little less than that, but close.

So I take it you're on the "stock" or middle setting?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by marcucci:
So I take it you're on the "stock" or middle setting?</font>
Nope. I wish, though!

The Race springs are supposed to lower the car 2.25" - that's waaaay too low for me. So i put 'em on the Highest setting - .5" above the "stock" setting, which equals ~1.75". sorry bout my previous post: its 0.25" PER clip setting, so two settings higher equals 0.5".

This is where the GC comes in handy, as I'm sure i could raise the car up even further, instead of being stuck at 1.75". And now you know why i kept mentioning my race springs, because of their higher rate (and not too bad for 125 bucks...).

And the best part about these springs is that, once the konis are set to the softest dampening setting, my car runs JUST as soft as stock...i love it!
 
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