Which valve-springs and retainers to use with Crower Stage 2's?
Ok, I already have the Crower Stage 2 cams (big idle lobe ones) and I've already bought the Crower Valve-Springs and Crower Titanium Retainers. People have said that the Titanium retainers will gall and bend within 30k miles or so and that they are NOT a long lasting component. So my question is what should I do here? This is my daily driver and I want my motor to last a long long time. On Honda-tech people have been talking about TiN (Titanium Nitride) coating for titanium retainers and apparently it "cures" the problem.
Or, are there any other retainers not made out of titanium that wouldn't have this short lifespan problem and would work well in conjunction with the Crower cams and valve-springs?
-Mike
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The TiN retainers should be about as strong as you will find for a Ti piece. I don't know the diameter of the OEM Honda retainer, but I don't see any problem using that with the Crower spring. I know the Honda retainer is likely heavy compared to a Ti piece, but it should serve well in your daily driver.
I will be installing the same stage 2 cams very soon in my '01 SS, and I have decided to stick with the OEM Honda valve springs and retainers. I know a lot of people use Type S cams with stock springs and retainers, and those have more lift than the Crowers. They also have less duration, so the opening ramp must be very steep. This indicates to me that the stock valvetrain is rather good. Additionally, I'm not concerned about over-reving the engine with the automatic transmission. Like you say, this is my daily driver, and I want the most reliable pieces for my application in there.
The answer is to go with steel or get another car for daily driving. I have no experience with TiN though "theoretically" it should be the answer. I would still not install them and forget about them like I would a steel retainer, though.
By whose account do the Type S cams have more lift than the Crowers? That's the first I have heard of that.
You can safely use the Stage 2 Crowers with stock hardware, though if you are getting them then you are probably already at a risk for overrevving... and any aftermarket cam will DEFINITELY reduce the safety margin from stock with regards to overreving damage...
Originally posted by marcucci The answer is to go with steel or get another car for daily driving. I have no experience with TiN though "theoretically" it should be the answer. I would still not install them and forget about them like I would a steel retainer, though.
By whose account do the Type S cams have more lift than the Crowers? That's the first I have heard of that.
You can safely use the Stage 2 Crowers with stock hardware, though if you are getting them then you are probably already at a risk for overrevving... and any aftermarket cam will DEFINITELY reduce the safety margin from stock with regards to overreving damage...
Marcucci,
Thanks for your help. So are there any aftermarket companies who make steel retainers and I could use with these cams or would stock even be a good idea? Can I use these Crower valve-springs with anything other than Crower Ti retainers? If not should I sell the Titanium retainers and springs and do another valve-train setup?
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-Mike Import Replacement Parts Toll Free Phone: 1-888-378-7278 Local/International Phone: 1-425-357-6818
Mon-Fri 8:00am-5:00 pm PST -Replacement and Performance Parts for all Import Automobiles- E-mail: sales@importrp.com
Originally posted by marcucci By whose account do the Type S cams have more lift than the Crowers? That's the first I have heard of that.
You can safely use the Stage 2 Crowers with stock hardware, though if you are getting them then you are probably already at a risk for overrevving... and any aftermarket cam will DEFINITELY reduce the safety margin from stock with regards to overreving damage...
By Honda's account, actually. I would consider them a good source on the matter.
The Type S duration at 0.040" (1mm) lift is 240deg Intake / 240 deg Exh. The Crower Stage 2 duration at 0.050" (1.27mm) is 248deg Intake / 240deg Exh.
So we'll split on the question, the Intake is certainly aggressive on the Type S, but the exhaust might be a bit more stout on the Crowers.
You are certainly correct that using the Crower cams with the OEM valvetrain is going to reduce the margin of safety. Even Crower admits that the OEM valvetrain is safe without exceeding the OEM redline. I'm not sure about the connection you've drawn between getting Crower cams and being at risk for over-rev. Just because one of us will install aftermarket cams doesn't mean we'll be using the car much differently, we'll just be driving it with more power.
As far as reliability.... I trust Honda above any aftermarket manufacturer. I've had aftermarket valvesprings fail when properly installed with matching components, but I've never had an OEM piece fail. That's not to say, though, that the Honda springs won't age faster with the Crower cams than they would with the stock cams. I just have a lot of respect for the countless hours of engineering time, testing, and quality control that Honda has put into their products. I'm not sure that Crower can boast that their valvtrains carry a 3yr / 30,000mile warranty.
mike95lude: I don't know of an aftermarket mfr for steel retainers, I would trust OE ones just fine, though. I have yet to see any fail.
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Originally posted by MC_HondaRacing
By Honda's account, actually. I would consider them a good source on the matter.
I would to, and I would like to know where you got that info, since they don't publish it (that I have seen). If you have measured a cam that's fine. I have a hard time believing that the Type S cam would have more lift than the Crower since people generally "buy" lift. Are the Honda numbers with valve lash, too?
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I'm not sure about the connection you've drawn between getting Crower cams and being at risk for over-rev. Just because one of us will install aftermarket cams doesn't mean we'll be using the car much differently, we'll just be driving it with more power.
My point is that more lift or a faster ramp is working the spring harder which means that for a given RPM you are already exceeding what the spring would be doing stock. If a stock spring can take, say, 9500 RPM before float then a more aggressive cam will reduce that number.
Has anyone heard of a company called KMS Engine Development?
They have aluminum retainers for H series but I'm not sure if you have to run their springs and retainers. Maybe somebody knows... Here's the link:
"Drag" is the closest match to crower's springs.
seat press: 80# @ 35mm.
open press: 195# @ 25mm
In case your wondering, I'm going for +.5 over cuz my seats are pretty mangled up. And I never heard about that 30,000 miles thing with the retainers! this sucks. pay to play i guess...
-Alberto
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number in my user name is the year of my first prelude, last and best year of 2nd gens, a sparkle black 1987si 2.0.
Another reason Ferrea is good: They have FIVE different options for springs to match your cams as BEST as possible. They have turbo, high pressure, drag, single spring and stock equivalent.
Crower, Eibach, Portflow, and etc. only make one type.
I'm seriosuly considering saving money too. "Earl" on honda-tech.com deals with SuperTech and an h22 valvetrain only costs $510. have to get more info about them though.
and I never heard of KMS.
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number in my user name is the year of my first prelude, last and best year of 2nd gens, a sparkle black 1987si 2.0.
I was doing some research on the web last night, and guess what I found..... STEEL RETAINERS. Guess where I found them..... CROWER.
On Crower's website they post their entire catalog. On page 144 is their list of retainers. All of the Honda retainers are listed under "miscellaneous retainers" (shows me the acceptance of Hondas). Their list seems to show that any Ti retainer they make, is also available in steel. There are three designs: Honda copy (OEM dimensions), one with diameters appropriate for Crower's aftermarket springs with the stock thickness, and one for the aftermarket springs with the +0.060" thickness.
I've been doing a lot of research lately into the available Honda springs. I've been looking at the potential to install any Honda spring into the cylinder head, and there are a lot of options. It looks to me that Crower and Manley have an almost identical product line, so I wonder if they are actually the same. Ferrea has some nice springs, as far as calculated installed and open loads go, but their spring diameters are so oddball that you need to use their Ti or Al retainers. Skunk2, IMO, serves as the bench mark of too heavy considering the wear problems reported from their application (surprisingly, the Crower springs are not too far off from the Skunk2 spring loads, so don't be surprised if problems ocurr).
Marcucci, Regarding the TypeS valve lift numbers I posted above, I got those from an SAE Automotive Engineering magazine article on the Prelude which came out in March 1997. I have a reprinting of the article, but I don't have a link to it on the web. I'll look for one.
So why don't most people use or talk about steel retainers? It makes sense, seriously how much extra power will you make from these titanium pieces anyway?
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number in my user name is the year of my first prelude, last and best year of 2nd gens, a sparkle black 1987si 2.0.
hey guys, I'm in the middle of finally buying the rest of the pieces finish my engine build. Still undecided about tianium vs steel retainers, which one would be better to use with OEM valves?
Madshoe, I would not look to Ferrea Ti gear being any better than Crower in terms of strength/reliability. At least I have not heard such.
Al will gall like Ti unless it is coated/impregnated (like with nitride). The Al/Mg retainers offered (I think by Ferrea?) are offered only as a cost savings over Ti. They are no stronger or more resistant to galling.
marcucci- I came across the same conclusions in my searching. I wanted all ferrea beause I really like their valves and they have option to replace every single piece of valvetrain. maybe someday.
It seems like such a market hype to play up titanium, woop di do. Crower's "honda tech" told me today that within the last year they changed over to a stronger, more reliable titanium. Even still, he suggested checking them every so often. He also said "yeah, and with the steel retainers, you could run the engine forever with no worries."
I have decided to play it safe since this will be a daily driver. This is far cheaper and a humbling step down from my orginal plans to go with a complete Ferrea upgrade (read couple posts above)
Crower steel retainers (tech said these for b-series too) 87093-S $58.69, Crower springs, and stock valves. These will be mated to the crower stg2's I got today. woot!
So why don't most people use or talk about steel retainers? It makes sense, seriously how much extra power will you make from these titanium pieces anyway?
Well the benefit of titanium retainers or any lighter material than steel for that matter, is that you can rev the engine more before valve float occurs. As I understand it, the lighter the materials in your valve train(valves,retainers,etc) the higher you can go w/o valve float. As for why steel isn't talked about...marketing. Titanium is a very oooo...ahhh thing to talk about now.
I have a question about titanium. 1) what is meant by gall? 2) Why would titanium "gall", isn't it stronger than steel?
-Greg P
Galling refers to surface wear. I am not sure if it is surface hardness or what, but the surface will actually wear down, especially where sharp edges contact. The material will eventually wear to the point that the material weakens to whereit fatigues from being too thin. This takes a lot, granted, but the benefits are just not a good choice for a street motor you want to get 100k miles out of.
Don't confuse tensile strength with surface hardness or shear strength.
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have to get more info about them though.
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