Okay i recently bought a project car from someone i know, he bought it from some kid who dumpped a BUNCH of money into it but could never get it to run right..
First off it's a 1993 Honda Prelude SI with a JDM H22A swap, mods as follows:
STOCK P14 Non-Vtec ECU
AEM v2 Intake
Flared STOCK Throttle Body
Skunk2 Intake Manifold
DC Sports 4-2-1 Headers
Magnaflow Test Pipe
DC Sports Cat-Back Exhaust
Skunk2 Adjsuatble Cam Gears
AEM High Volume Fuel Rail
STOCK Fuel presure regulator
AEM Light Weight Pulleys
Unorthadox Underdrive Crank Pulley
Apexi Vpac SAFC II
EGR Blocked Off
MSD 6A Ignition Box
MSD Blaster 2 External Coil
MSD Ignition Wires
HKS Hyper Ground + Volt Regulator
Fidanze Racing Light Weight Flywheel
ACT Stage 3 6-Puc Racing Clutch
Here are the problems..
When you start it up with the distributer all the way retarted, it idles at like 500-600 rpms and DIES eventualy if you don't keep it alive with the gas pedal.. you can hear it missing.. when it warms up it idles at around 800-1000 but you can Hear it miss and feal a good loss in power when you accelerate..
When you start it up with the distributer all the way advanced, it starts up at idles at 800-900 Rpms and doesn't die.. but you can still hear it miss every now and then.. and you can still feel power loss though out the power band..
Also when cruseing at part throttle you can fell the car miss and jerk back and forth, almost like it's lunging, obvious missing and knocking...
At idle if you stand behind my car your eyes water within seconds from all the gas fuems.. i mean it's BAD.. you can smell gas in the car, out of the car, and when it hits v-tec there is black smoke, only a little...
Fuel pressure gauge reads 36-38 PSI..
If i advance the Cam Gears it seems to run worse, reguardless if i retard or advance the distributer.. and if i retard the cam gears it runs like straight CRAP..
so i have the cam gears set at TDC..
The car NEVER over heats, and uses VERRY little oil.. there are NO oil leaks and NO fuel leaks... and i'm PRETTY sure there are NO vacuums leaks, i mean there is NO idle surge except when it misses the RPMs drop for a split second..
The Apexi is set to DEFAULT.. there has been NO advanceing of ANY fuel curves from the Apexi at ALL.. everything reads 0...
I just don't understand it.. i mean i KNOW i'm running WAY too rich, but i can't figure out why.. i'm starting to think it doesn't have to do with my timing, but with my fuel curve.. maby because my ECU is the stock non-vtec ? maby the Apexi is messing things up ? what about having the EGR blocked off, i know that can cause spark knock..
i'm thinking about putting an AEM Adjustable fuel pressure regulator and turning the fuel down, but i don't know..
Also when i Rev to 6000+ rpms and i push the clutch in i hear a grinding noise.. but this is the ONLY time i hear it, when i'm engaged in Vtec and revving past 6k Rpms and i push the clutch .. i'm thinking maby pilot bearing ? because i can engauge vtec and shift at 5.5k-6k and it wont make the noise... what could this be ?
And last but ot least, my tranny has a nubby grind in 5th gear.. it ONLY happons if your revving above 3k and shift into 5th.. below 3k it wont grind.. is this just a syncro going out ? is it easy to repair ? is it worth it ?
PLEASE if ANYONE can think of ANYTHING that might help let me knoW!!
Okay i recently bought a project car from someone i know, he bought it from some kid who dumpped a BUNCH of money into it but could never get it to run right..
I just don't understand it.. i mean i KNOW i'm running WAY too rich, but i can't figure out why.. i'm starting to think it doesn't have to do with my timing, but with my fuel curve.. maby because my ECU is the stock non-vtec ? maby the Apexi is messing things up ? what about having the EGR blocked off, i know that can cause spark knock..
i'm thinking about putting an AEM Adjustable fuel pressure regulator and turning the fuel down, but i don't know..
Also when i Rev to 6000+ rpms and i push the clutch in i hear a grinding noise.. but this is the ONLY time i hear it, when i'm engaged in Vtec and revving past 6k Rpms and i push the clutch .. i'm thinking maby pilot bearing ? because i can engauge vtec and shift at 5.5k-6k and it wont make the noise... what could this be ?
And last but ot least, my tranny has a nubby grind in 5th gear.. it ONLY happons if your revving above 3k and shift into 5th.. below 3k it wont grind.. is this just a syncro going out ? is it easy to repair ? is it worth it ?
PLEASE if ANYONE can think of ANYTHING that might help let me knoW!!
-Joe
Get rid of the P14 ECU. That by itself should fix a lot of problems. In order to troubleshoot the car, get rid of the VAFC and start with a stock engine management system. Don't buy an FPR.
Start by getting the right ECU for the car. The P14 and P13 have many differences in their maps.
Also, you may have a bad injector or misfire in one cylinder. I would check that after you fix your ECU.
geez. get rid of all of that crap. none of it's really doing any good, expecially the intake manifold. i suggest selling all of it and buying some good parts.
Anyway, get your hands on some real engine management, or atleast the correct stock ECU! If you want to tune, i have an ECU, plus hondata, just do a search if you want more info.
Have a couple things to add to what Artifex said. Stop blindly messing with the distributor. Get a timing light and set the ignition timing properly. Stop messing with the cam gears, zero them out so you are running on stock cam timing.
__________________
Last edited by sharkcohen : 03-29-2006 at 10:17 PM.
I went to my local Dyno with a Dynoflow Dyno.. the most accurate dyno known to man sapposedly..
I hit a 10.5:1 Air/Fuel Ratio.. and when Vtec Hits, it drops down to a 8.5-9:1 Air Fuel ratio.. i left a BLACK STREAK on the dyno from my exhaust soot...
I dynoed at 100 WHP and 110 lbs tq... now even the Chevy guys at the Dyno knew something was up with this... So we used the Apexi and DROPPED the Fuel ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE BOARD... we went -35% fuel from 1000-5000 rpms... and -25% at Vtec on..
After this i hit a 12.5:1 Air/Fuel ratio and at Vtec i hit a 11.5:1 Air fuel ratio.. STILL WAY TO RICH..
With this tunning i hit 120 WHP and 129 LBS tq.. THIS IS A JOKE i was thinking.. so i took her home and RIPPED her apart...
I found a NUMBER of things wrong..
#1 the Crank pulley is a "Fourm Racing" Light weight aluminum Crank pulley.. it has NO TIMING MARK AT ALL ON IT.. 5 diff people have looked.. there IS NO MARK AT ALL...
#2 That same crank pulley is LOCK-TITE on at 300+ lbs of tq... we hit it with a 250 impact, nothing... we even used my 800 lbs tq ARMY TOQUE wrench for takeing tanks apart, it BROKE my 1/2 extension in HALF..
#3 The timing belt feels loose, but with no way to get the pulley off i can't get the timing cover off, and i can't adjsut the belt tension... but i DON'T think it skiped a tooth, but i could be wrong..
#4 it IS a JDM P13 ECU with NO chip.. it's a virgin.. i opened her up and everything looked good...
#5 We noticed a KINK in the fuel line so we desided to take it off.. when we did we found something KEWL... we found not only is there a AEM High Volume Fuel rail, AEM High Volume Fuel Filter and a Walbro 255 LPH Fuel Pump, but my jaw dropped when i pulled the injectors...
***450cc*** Injectors came out! i was like WTF!! HUGE RCs...these things are MASSIVE.. with a DUAL spray pattern and TWICE as big around as my stock injectors.. now even I know this is wrong..
My friend who was with me HAPPONED to have a SPARE set of Injectors from his B17.. outa his 1992 GSR.. so i put them in hopeing it would solve the problem..
I tunned my Apexi Back to 0 and started her up..
Still Read 40 PSI of Fuel pressure on my gauge.. but she had a ROLLING IDLE.. between 1000-1300 rpms.. if you retard the distributer at ALL the car runs WAY worse.. even fulley advanced the car still doesn't sound right.. i mean it Idles nicely, but at Snap Throttle, it BOGS WAY BAD.. i mean at ANY load or Snap Throttle you can hear and feel it bog..
So i tunned my Apexi to give +10% Fuel and it FEELs better but i am not sure by any means.. i had to LIMP my car home at 40 MPH on the highway.. because at anything more then 10-20% throttle, the car BOGS, lunges, back fires, ect...
WTF could this BE..
All i know is i'm GOING BACK TO STOCK.. i mean i'm SELLING ALL THIS STUFF off this motor to BUY or TRADE for OEM equipment and tunning...
What i'm getting rid of is:
AEM V2 Intake System
Skunk2 Intake Manifold
AEM High Volume Fuel Rail
RC 450cc Injectors
AEM Light Weight Pulleys
Skunk2 6-Bolt Adjustable Cam Gear
Fourm Racing Aluminum Under Drive Crank Pulley
Buddy Club Light Weight Racing Battery
Magnaflow Test Pipe
And what i'm looking for is:
STOCK OEM Air Box
STOCK H22 Fuel Rail
STOCK H22 Injectors
STOCK Alternator Pulley
STOCK H22 Crank Pulley
STOCK OEM Cat Converter
And any other OEM equipment i might be missing..
If anyone can think of WTF is up with my JDM H22 i'll GIVE you something NICE.. i mean i'm willing to HOOK someone UP with this CRAP i'm takeing off my motor in return for some tunning help..
I mean i know these are Nice Brand Name parts, but in my set-up and not being tunned it's just STEALING like 60-70 WHP..
Soo SOMEONE PLEASE help me out ASAP.. PM me or send me an e-mail at h22lovin@yahoo.com
Lucky for you, the timing marks on the prelude are on the FLYWHEEL! Some older fidanza flywheels don't have them, but most do. Get stock injectors - 345cc is the correct size, high impedence. B17 injectors are probably the same as the other b-series ones at 240cc, those are too small by far.
I don't know where you live, but find a local REPUTABLE shop that knows how to do swaps properly - so many of these shops do a real hack job on all the wiring. I reccomend also getting the Helms Chassis and Electrical manual for the 4th gen to make sure everything is wired right.
Are you getting any CELs? Is the CEL even hooked up?
Umm this is kinda a dumb question but how do you check so see if the CEL is hooked up ? do you just mean the bulb behind the cluster ? or do you mean the actual wire running to the ecu ?
i forgot to mention the MORON who did all this to the car before i bought it, also installed a JDM cluster and SCREWED OFF the cluster wireing in his attempt.. even the BEST electric shops and tuner shops couldn't get my speed or tach to work.. the CEL, Brake, Door ajar, ect plus my Fuel level and Coolent Temp all seem to work.. also my clock works..
So i bought a COMPLETE underdash harness from a junk yard and am going to try it in an attempt to get my clutser working.. if my CEL wasn't working wouldn't changing this harness help also ?
Also i notice under the hood ALL KINDS OF VACUUM LINES.. i mean like splitter everywhere.. and vacuum lines capped off.. i worked alot on D series motors but some of these vacuum connections seem fishy to me and my B series buddys.. i mean isn't the vacuum line on top of my stock Fuel Pressure Regulator SAPOSE to go DIRECTLY to the Itake Manifold like EVERY other B and D series ? on this H22 it's going to what looks like ANOTHER Mass Air Flow Sensor looking thing.. but my Mass Air is PLUGGED in the back of the ITM like it's sapose to.. is this a second one ?
Also there is some kewl box with 4 vacume lines, a electrical plug(thats plugged into the harness) and a breather on it ZIPPED TIED under my AEM Intake next to my BLOCKED OFF EGR valve...
Also on another note.. my ABS was disconnected by this DIP.. i either want to HOOK it back UP.. (i have the ABS ECU) or i REALLY would like to remove ALL the ABS crap from under the hood..
I went to my local Dyno with a Dynoflow Dyno.. the most accurate dyno known to man sapposedly..
I hit a 10.5:1 Air/Fuel Ratio.. and when Vtec Hits, it drops down to a 8.5-9:1 Air Fuel ratio.. i left a BLACK STREAK on the dyno from my exhaust soot...
I dynoed at 100 WHP and 110 lbs tq... now even the Chevy guys at the Dyno knew something was up with this... So we used the Apexi and DROPPED the Fuel ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE BOARD... we went -35% fuel from 1000-5000 rpms... and -25% at Vtec on..
After this i hit a 12.5:1 Air/Fuel ratio and at Vtec i hit a 11.5:1 Air fuel ratio.. STILL WAY TO RICH..
With this tunning i hit 120 WHP and 129 LBS tq.. THIS IS A JOKE i was thinking.. so i took her home and RIPPED her apart...
Why the hell would you dyno an engine that you know isn't running right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sohclovin
I found a NUMBER of things wrong..
#1 the Crank pulley is a "Fourm Racing" Light weight aluminum Crank pulley.. it has NO TIMING MARK AT ALL ON IT.. 5 diff people have looked.. there IS NO MARK AT ALL...
This is an H22 right? If so, there are no timing marks on the crank pulley. The timing marks are on the flywheel. Do you have a Helms manual? If not, I'd suggest you buy one, you sound like you're shooting in the dark hoping that some you do will magically make the engine run perfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sohclovin
#2 That same crank pulley is LOCK-TITE on at 300+ lbs of tq... we hit it with a 250 impact, nothing... we even used my 800 lbs tq ARMY TOQUE wrench for takeing tanks apart, it BROKE my 1/2 extension in HALF..
That's typical. You sure there's Loctite on the bolt? A 250 ft*lb impact isn't going to budge that bolt. It's quite difficult to get it with a 1/2" breaker bar without some serious flex, and forget about using a 1/2" extension. You'll twist it in two. I use a 3.5 ft. long 3/4" drive breaker bar with 3/4" drive extensions. Because of the size of the hole in the Honda crank pulley holder, I have to use a 3/4" to 1/2" adapter and a 1/2" 19mm socket. I've twisted more than a few of the 3/4" to 1/2" adapters in half on crank pulley bolts. Stock torque spec is 181 ft*lbs, so I'd imagine 300 to 400+ ft*lbs to break it loose. Since I wised up and got the right tools, I haven't had any problems getting crank pulley bolts or driveshaft nuts off on a Prelude, and I've done a ton of them. Air tools get me almost nowhere, but the breaker bar hasn't let me down yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sohclovin
#3 The timing belt feels loose, but with no way to get the pulley off i can't get the timing cover off, and i can't adjsut the belt tension... but i DON'T think it skiped a tooth, but i could be wrong..
AFAIK all USDM H22s had autotensioners, so you cannot adjust the timing belt tension. I would imagine JDM engines are the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sohclovin
#5 We noticed a KINK in the fuel line so we desided to take it off.. when we did we found something KEWL... we found not only is there a AEM High Volume Fuel rail, AEM High Volume Fuel Filter and a Walbro 255 LPH Fuel Pump, but my jaw dropped when i pulled the injectors...
***450cc*** Injectors came out! i was like WTF!! HUGE RCs...these things are MASSIVE.. with a DUAL spray pattern and TWICE as big around as my stock injectors.. now even I know this is wrong..
My friend who was with me HAPPONED to have a SPARE set of Injectors from his B17.. outa his 1992 GSR.. so i put them in hopeing it would solve the problem..
I tunned my Apexi Back to 0 and started her up..
Still Read 40 PSI of Fuel pressure on my gauge.. but she had a ROLLING IDLE.. between 1000-1300 rpms.. if you retard the distributer at ALL the car runs WAY worse.. even fulley advanced the car still doesn't sound right.. i mean it Idles nicely, but at Snap Throttle, it BOGS WAY BAD.. i mean at ANY load or Snap Throttle you can hear and feel it bog..
So let me get this straight, you install injectors that are too small for the ECU, then you blindly set the timing and actually drove the car like that???
Quote:
Originally Posted by sohclovin
All i know is i'm GOING BACK TO STOCK.. i mean i'm SELLING ALL THIS STUFF off this motor to BUY or TRADE for OEM equipment and tunning...
I think that's probably the smartest decision you've made yet, but why get rid of all the stuff. Just put everything back to stock and trouble shoot the engine.
Have you even done a compression and leak down test to determine if the engine is even healthy at all? That would have been one of the FIRST things I would have done.
Have you checked the ignition components; distributor cap & rotor, wires, plugs, etc.? Have you checked the valve lash?
Fuel is an obvious problem, but it sounds like you have many other problems.
Buy a Helms and become familiar with the engine, and stop making blind adjustments. It could cost you more than dyno time.
__________________
Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
#27 PTB NASA TX Performance Touring Racing makes heroin addiction seem like a vague wish for something salty. -- Peter Egan
Also i notice under the hood ALL KINDS OF VACUUM LINES.. i mean like splitter everywhere.. and vacuum lines capped off.. i worked alot on D series motors but some of these vacuum connections seem fishy to me and my B series buddys.. i mean isn't the vacuum line on top of my stock Fuel Pressure Regulator SAPOSE to go DIRECTLY to the Itake Manifold like EVERY other B and D series ?
on this H22 it's going to what looks like ANOTHER Mass Air Flow Sensor looking thing.. but my Mass Air is PLUGGED in the back of the ITM like it's sapose to.. is this a second one ?
I've never seen an H22 (or any late model Honda) with a MAF. You sure you know what you're looking at?
One last thing, how could you expect it to run right with an ECU that's not programmed for that engine? A VAFC isn't going to be enough to get the engine to run at its best. You need either the stock ECU, or one that you can program both the fuel and ignition curves. I have a Neptune P28 in my H22, and it does very, very well.
__________________
Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
#27 PTB NASA TX Performance Touring Racing makes heroin addiction seem like a vague wish for something salty. -- Peter Egan
Lucky for you, the timing marks on the prelude are on the FLYWHEEL! Some older fidanza flywheels don't have them, but most do. Get stock injectors - 345cc is the correct size, high impedence. B17 injectors are probably the same as the other b-series ones at 240cc, those are too small by far.
I don't know where you live, but find a local REPUTABLE shop that knows how to do swaps properly - so many of these shops do a real hack job on all the wiring. I reccomend also getting the Helms Chassis and Electrical manual for the 4th gen to make sure everything is wired right.
Are you getting any CELs? Is the CEL even hooked up?
Whoa, OBD1 4Gen injectors are low impedance. Are the 96 injectors high impedance, or did Honda keep the ballast pack?
__________________
Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
#27 PTB NASA TX Performance Touring Racing makes heroin addiction seem like a vague wish for something salty. -- Peter Egan
Note that the previous autotensioner, PN 14520-P13-003, and the new updated autotensioner 14520-P13-013 are shown. DO NOT order the -003, hopefully they won't even sell it. The new version is the -013.
Another thing that is interesting, on the 4Gen, you can buy the woodruff keys, however on the 5Gen, it's not a valid PN since the 5Gens had the key machined into the stock cam gears. Hence the reason why you have to buy woodruff keys when installing cam gears on a 5Gen (or at least, all of the 5Gens I've worked on).
Also, I did a JDM H22 swap into a 92S. Prior to doing the swap, I did quite a bit of reconditioning on the JDM engine. Please note that I changed the autotensioner. JDM H22 swap notes
It was definitely a 4Gen JDM engine, as it had low impedance injectors, a second water temp sending unit on the outlet neck of the head, etc.
I need to find the injector cleaning sheet from my 5Gen injectors, but I recall it being like 287 or 297 cc/min +/- 1%, so 300 sounds reasonable.
One other little tidbit. The H22s all seem to come from the factory with platinum plugs, even the 4Gen. The H23 spark plugs are exactly the same, except their copper, and much cheaper! I use coppers in the track car, and I used coppers in my engine when it was a street car. I change them fairly often, so platinums were of no use to me.
__________________
Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
#27 PTB NASA TX Performance Touring Racing makes heroin addiction seem like a vague wish for something salty. -- Peter Egan
I don't know what I was thinking. I know that the manual tensioner is h23 only.
As far as 5th gen injectors some say 290, some say 310, I think 290 is more accurate, but I figured I'd split the difference for simplicity's sake here.
Yes, I'd say 290 is more correct. The 4Gen injectors are much larger! The S2k injectors are larger still, 370, IIRC?
I don't know what you were thinking either Jesse.
__________________
Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
#27 PTB NASA TX Performance Touring Racing makes heroin addiction seem like a vague wish for something salty. -- Peter Egan
I use a 3.5 ft. long 3/4" drive breaker bar with 3/4" drive extensions. Because of the size of the hole in the Honda crank pulley holder, I have to use a 3/4" to 1/2" adapter and a 1/2" 19mm socket. I've twisted more than a few of the 3/4" to 1/2" adapters in half on crank pulley bolts. Stock torque spec is 181 ft*lbs, so I'd imagine 300 to 400+ ft*lbs to break it loose. Since I wised up and got the right tools, I haven't had any problems getting crank pulley bolts or driveshaft nuts off on a Prelude, and I've done a ton of them. Air tools get me almost nowhere, but the breaker bar hasn't let me down yet.
Please note that I changed the autotensioner.