P13 swap with E-manage - Honda Prelude Forum

<h22a4> · 03-01-2006, 10:41 AM

the last time I ran on the dyno, I realized that my 3000 to 5000 rpm ranges was running lean, very lean..... 15 - 16 A/f on the wideband. I believe that this is not how it was originally tuned with E-Manage. I suspect that my obd2 ecu is making adjustments against my E-manage tune and messing up the tune.

Would anyone know if swaping to a p13 would benefit my situation? Mike from DL motorsport even said that while tuning my e-manage, it was diffcult becuase the ecu kept compensating for any changes made by e-manage.

also -- what else do I need for the swap? just the p13 ecu? and would I still be able to plug the e-manage plugs or harness directly into the new ecu without any new wires cutting and splicing?

thanks guys

h22terror · 03-01-2006, 12:10 PM

go p28.

sharkcohen · 03-01-2006, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by <h22a4>

the last time I ran on the dyno, I realized that my 3000 to 5000 rpm ranges was running lean, very lean..... 15 - 16 A/f on the wideband. I believe that this is not how it was originally tuned with E-Manage. I suspect that my obd2 ecu is making adjustments against my E-manage tune and messing up the tune.

Would anyone know if swaping to a p13 would benefit my situation? Mike from DL motorsport even said that while tuning my e-manage, it was diffcult becuase the ecu kept compensating for any changes made by e-manage.

also -- what else do I need for the swap? just the p13 ecu? and would I still be able to plug the e-manage plugs or harness directly into the new ecu without any new wires cutting and splicing?

thanks guys

No, it won't help. OBD1 ECU's 'compensate' in the same way that OBD2 ECUs do. You need to make your changes in the E-manage only in areas of the fuel map that the ECU operates in open loop. These changes will not be readjusted by the stock ECU. There is absolutely no reason to change to an OBD1 ECU if you are using E-manage, it would be a waste of money.

If your tuner was only making adjustments at WOT, then he does not know what he is talking about and I would advise you to find a new tuner.

Are you using the OBD2 'workaround' crap?

<h22a4> · 03-01-2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

No, it won't help. OBD1 ECU's 'compensate' in the same way that OBD2 ECUs do. You need to make your changes in the E-manage only in areas of the fuel map that the ECU operates in open loop. These changes will not be readjusted by the stock ECU. There is absolutely no reason to change to an OBD1 ECU if you are using E-manage, it would be a waste of money.

If your tuner was only making adjustments at WOT, then he does not know what he is talking about and I would advise you to find a new tuner.

Are you using the OBD2 'workaround' crap?

I think my tuner was doing partial throttle tuning as well right from idle to WOT, as the car needed to be tuned to a hold a steady idle due to larger idle camshafts lobes.

workaround mod --- no --- but i have a obd2 reader and i clear the memory every few days ---

I was wondering if it is possible that the lean a/f numbers were becuase I reset my ECU with obd2 reader right before going to the dyno, so the e-manage is technically throwing the same signals to a 'fresh' ecu..... WHERE, when I tuned it, the e-manage was tuned to ECU that was already compensated itself while driving....... does this make sense? so basically everytimem I reset the ECU, the a/f would be thrown out of whack...... as the e-mange was not tuned on a freshly 'reset' ECU during tuning.....

<h22a4> · 03-01-2006, 01:59 PM

and during my second tuning session, I lost about 5 WHP ..... on a dynojet........

I know that different dynoes read differently.... but I thought that information could be important too

sharkcohen · 03-01-2006, 09:49 PM

Well, if it took you 20 minutes to drive to the dyno, that ECU reset would not have been trouble for you. The ECU recalibrates itself in about 20 minutes of active driving.

If your tuner was trying to tune all of part throttle, that is the problem right there. If you try to adjust the fuel maps below the threshold at which open loop fueling kicks in, it will cause certain unexpected behavior as the ECU attempts to readjust STFT to compensate. LTFT is figured from STFT and applied to open loop, open loop operates above a certain load and at WOT.

What kind of OBD2 reader do you have? If you can actively watch the ECU outputs, you can see when you cross over to open loop by monitoring STFT while watching your E-manage fuel map with realtime tracking. When your STFT suddenly changes to and stays at 0, you are in open loop, and fueling is being adjusted by LTFT. You would want to tune in your fuel maps starting from MAP voltages above where you cross into open loop.

<h22a4> · 03-01-2006, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

Well, if it took you 20 minutes to drive to the dyno, that ECU reset would not have been trouble for you. The ECU recalibrates itself in about 20 minutes of active driving.

If your tuner was trying to tune all of part throttle, that is the problem right there. If you try to adjust the fuel maps below the threshold at which open loop fueling kicks in, it will cause certain unexpected behavior as the ECU attempts to readjust STFT to compensate. LTFT is figured from STFT and applied to open loop, open loop operates above a certain load and at WOT.

What kind of OBD2 reader do you have? If you can actively watch the ECU outputs, you can see when you cross over to open loop by monitoring STFT while watching your E-manage fuel map with realtime tracking. When your STFT suddenly changes to and stays at 0, you are in open loop, and fueling is being adjusted by LTFT. You would want to tune in your fuel maps starting from MAP voltages above where you cross into open loop.

that is very informative and descriptive, but I'm afriad I have to say that I understood very little of it.

To be clear, on thursday morning, the e-manage was installed. After installation I drove to the dyno tune place which was about 1 hour or so drive (while driving, the car could not maintain a idle and kept stalling) After tuning that day, the car drove fine and idled well. My second time at the dyno, I resut the ECU right before going into the dyno.

hope that clears things up

sharkcohen · 03-02-2006, 08:15 AM

If you want to understand how to set up the E-manage properly, you need to do a lot of reading. We've extensively covered how OBD ECUs work, I would suggest doing a search for 'LTFT' and start reading threads that come up. Or, show your tuner what I wrote. If he doesn't understand it, you'll definitely need a new tuner.

Don't reset your ECU right before hitting the dyno, it's counter productive.

TwizT · 03-02-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

If you want to understand how to set up the E-manage properly, you need to do a lot of reading. We've extensively covered how OBD ECUs work, I would suggest doing a search for 'LTFT' and start reading threads that come up. Or, show your tuner what I wrote. If he doesn't understand it, you'll definitely need a new tuner.

Don't reset your ECU right before hitting the dyno, it's counter productive.

Shark: H22A4 and I have the same tuner and we both run E-manage. In fact, I recommended this tuner to him because he is the only local tuner that knows how to tune E-manage well and he tunes a lot of local and national (canadian) fully built race/drag cars. The tuner definitely knows what he is doing. I've been running E-manage with my JRSC fine for about 11 months. H22A4 actually has a few issues with his build, especially since he is not using properly sized fuel injectors, which prevented the tuner to do a full and proper tune because the injector duty cycle was maxing out. Also, the most recent time that H22A4 got his a/f read from a wideband, it was at a different tuner's dyno and the wideband was placed in his muffler, hence skewing the actual results of what the correct a/f should be.

sharkcohen · 03-02-2006, 07:02 PM

I'm not knocking the tuner, I'm expressing the importance of only tuning open loop. If the guy tried to tune closed loop, then he doesn't know not to. Go back and teach him something

Good points on the car's history, though. It's important to communicate those things when seeking help on a message board. It sounds like this car has alot of issues.

<h22a4> · 03-03-2006, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

I'm not knocking the tuner, I'm expressing the importance of only tuning open loop. If the guy tried to tune closed loop, then he doesn't know not to. Go back and teach him something

Good points on the car's history, though. It's important to communicate those things when seeking help on a message board. It sounds like this car has alot of issues.

well, the only issue i know of is the injectors, which are 340 CC.....

i guess its a building process.. trying to learn here myself and put together something that will run good.....

sharkcohen · 03-03-2006, 07:48 AM

So, why are you running those injectors? I asked this in another one of your threads, but you didn't answer.

<h22a4> · 03-03-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

So, why are you running those injectors? I asked this in another one of your threads, but you didn't answer.

I was previously told by many that even stock injectors can handle up to 200WHP at 290CC. And since these are 340CC, even bigger than stock, I expected them to be fine.... apparently noone maxed out their injectors so soon like me in similar setups........

sharkcohen · 03-03-2006, 10:36 PM

But that doesn't answer why you are running the 340s

And no, you didn't max out those injectors, unless there's something wrong with them. Or, perhaps your E-manage was not properly calibrated for them.

Are the injectores saturated or peak-and-hold?

TwizT · 03-03-2006, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

I'm not knocking the tuner, I'm expressing the importance of only tuning open loop. If the guy tried to tune closed loop, then he doesn't know not to. Go back and teach him something

The tuner tunes only in open loop.

<h22a4> · 03-04-2006, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

But that doesn't answer why you are running the 340s

And no, you didn't max out those injectors, unless there's something wrong with them. Or, perhaps your E-manage was not properly calibrated for them.

Are the injectores saturated or peak-and-hold?

i'm running the 340cc becasue they were available and are bigger than my 290cc....

they are peak and hold injectors

sharkcohen · 03-04-2006, 11:12 AM

That doesn't explain why you are running them. 1000 cc is bigger too, why not run those? If you are unwilling to answer simple questions, why even bother seeking help on a message board?

You did wire in a resistor box, right?

<h22a4> · 03-04-2006, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

That doesn't explain why you are running them. 1000 cc is bigger too, why not run those? If you are unwilling to answer simple questions, why even bother seeking help on a message board?

You did wire in a resistor box, right?

What part of "they were available to me" don't you understnad?? Grant, from TPC gave me his 340CC injectors to put in my car, as they are a little bigger than my stock 290CC. WE believed that 340CC would be suffice for under 200whp.

I don't even understand why you are saying i'm unwilling to asnwer 'simple question' ...... I asked for help and gave as much information as I can about my situation..... if you don't like it, don't repond.... simple as that.... I'm seeking knowledge from people here that understands more than I do and may give some insights due to their past experience

all the installs were done by a reputable shop..... and yes the resistor box was hooked up.......

sharkcohen · 03-04-2006, 07:09 PM

You don't need those 340s. Something is wrong in your setup.

<h22a4> · 03-04-2006, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

You don't need those 340s. Something is wrong in your setup.

i put in 340cc because my mechanic (Ray), Mike from DL Motor (tuner, and johnson from Ultimate Racing, all suggested that I needed a little bigger injectors, preferably 370CC injectors..... but I settled for 340CC, just to keep the duty cycle in the safe side.....

could be the injectors....perhaps they don't work well or setup wrong, which is why I wanna try to put in some RC 370CC..... at least thats what my tuner told me to do until he tunes it again...