NA project went bad (blown engine)...suggestions needed for 250whp. - Honda Prelude Forum

LVSBB6 · 02-22-2006, 03:52 PM

I have a heartbreaking story....

So I have spent a lot of time & money on rebuilding my engine, and after I got it back last November, I have put on 3,000 miles to break-in slowly and didnâ€™t have any problems at all. It was not until recently I brought the revs to VTEC range and notice the â€œhiccipingâ€? which I posted earlier on H-T.com:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1522896

In solving the problem, I have replaced the plugs, wires, rotor & cap with brand new but it didnâ€™t help. So last weekend I decided to take the car out for some data-logging just to make the A/F is good. Spent almost 2 hours on the highway doing back & forth 2nd & 3rd gear redline, the O2 graphs read 13.1 to 13.5 consistently without any dips.

Still couldnâ€™t figure out the problem, I decide to turn around and head home. I was driving out the exit doing about 60mph 2nd gear and suddenly the motor shut out on me. There were white smoke coming out from the breather filter, I pulled the dip stick out and there were smoke coming out from there as well. The oil level was good, as I have topped it up just the day before.

So I got the car towed to my mechanicâ€™s shop, he pulled the plugs out and was shocked. The plug from cylinder #2 has been partially melted or crushed in. At this point its hard to tell whether it was hit or melted but the tip of the plug including part of the threaded area was badly damaged. Thereâ€™s a very good chance something has dropped in the chamber. However, the other plugs in cylinder #1, 3 & 4 were in perfect shape

Whatâ€™s worse is the motor was seized as he couldnâ€™t turn the crank. Basically my motor is ****ed. They have yet rip my motor apart so itâ€™s still guessing game here as to what had happened in the motor. From what I can tell, the timing was fine.
Any ideas as to what could have caused this, and if it could be the machine shops fault. They rebuild my bottom end with Type S pistons and Kaizenspeed BS eliminator kit.

I will post pictures once the shop rip apart the motor, but for now I want to hear what you guys think about this accident. Its sad because I was thinking to hit the dyno soon but now **** happens.

Anyways, I would have to start all over again. Iâ€™m preparing for the worst and expect only the valvetrain survived from this accident. What do all of you experts recommend for the bottom end to make it stronger & reliable?

My set up was...

H22A4 - 12.2 compression on 94 Octaneâ€¦

TWM ITBs w/ filters
AEM EMS & wideband
RC 440cc
Jun camshafts
Jun valvesprings
Jun cam gears (0,0)
Portflow retainers
Supertech flat valves (stock size)
SMSP header
3â€? exhaust (no cat)
P&P head, milled 0.023thou
Type S pistons
Spoon thin headgasket
Kaizenspeed balance shaft eliminator kit
UR pulleys
Jun flywheel
NGK â€“7 copper plugs
MSD plug wires
HKG ground
Sun hyper voltage system

Phryxis · 02-22-2006, 04:01 PM

man, that is really unfortunate to hear man, hopefully your head is still in working order.

i have a similar hicupping situation, just like the one you described. does yours happen sporadically or does it happen a lot? mine happens MAYBE once a week, just one little "momentary, super instantaneous hesitation in power" (it's weird because i think i described the symptom exactly the same way you did :P).

was the motor clayed? it seems like maybe the tolerances were too tight, and at the upper RPMs there was some sort of contact.

good luck, hope things turn out better for you, as you have one monster ass motor.

LVSBB6 · 02-22-2006, 04:29 PM

Yes the motor was clayed just to make sure things were safe, and I have been doing a lot of high revs so if tolerances was too tight, something should have went wrong earlier not after 3000 miles.

As for the hiccup issue, mine happened every time I revved passed 6K. I still think it had something to do with ignition and the next thing I would have tried was the igniter unit.

Joeboxer212 · 02-22-2006, 08:05 PM

sorry to hear about your car. Maybe I should get my car checked out as well. I've experienced what can be described as "hiccups" myself, it's only happened about four times in as many years.

71dsp · 02-22-2006, 09:05 PM

How did you get 12.2:1 compression? I'm milled almost the max with stock pistons, and it only bumped compression about 0.6 points. I can't see how you got a 1.2 point bump in compression!

What kind of rods? With all the high RPM use, are you sure you didn't have a rod bolt failure (if you're using stock rods).

I really doubt the balance shaft elimination had anything to do with it.

When the engine was clayed, was it clayed with a thin headgakset or with a stock headgasket?

Have you checked the valves and retainers lately? On Todd's D16, his Skunk2 (Supertech, supposedly) valves had begun to mushroom badly. One of them had pulled through the keeper and was dangerously close to being dropped in the engine. That would have spelled instant doom for the engine.

More than likely (and this is a guess) it was detonation, so over time, it just weakened things until something finally gave. Perhaps a piston, or even a rod. You won't really know until the engine is torn down.

250 WHP is going to be tough on a street engine, IMO, but if you hit it, tell us how you did it!

I'm at 204 WHP on stock rods, pistons, and cams. I just have the hell milled out of the head. The squish is actually quite close, and when I did the math, I only had a 10.6:1 CR, so I'm curious how you got such a high CR!

TwizT · 02-22-2006, 09:32 PM

That sucks to hear about that Leo.

LVSBB6 · 02-22-2006, 11:21 PM

On top of the Type S pistions and milled head, my motor also had Spoon HG & Supertech flat valves in place which further brought up the compression.

I was running stock rods with brand new bearings. The motor has yet been opened, so cannot confirm the condition of the rods at this moment.

The motor was clayed with stock headgasket minus two layers, which would be the same thickness as Spoon.

Another unknown factor is the Kaizenspeed BS eliminator kit. There's only a handful of guys who have this mod, I have not heard much feedback on its reliability and issues. If the kit wasn't designed or installed properly, then the oil pressure might have been reduced at some point and maybe i didn't have enough for high rpm which may lead to vtec "hiccups".

Quote:

Originally Posted by 71dsp

How did you get 12.2:1 compression? I'm milled almost the max with stock pistons, and it only bumped compression about 0.6 points. I can't see how you got a 1.2 point bump in compression!

What kind of rods? With all the high RPM use, are you sure you didn't have a rod bolt failure (if you're using stock rods).

I really doubt the balance shaft elimination had anything to do with it.

When the engine was clayed, was it clayed with a thin headgakset or with a stock headgasket?

Have you checked the valves and retainers lately? On Todd's D16, his Skunk2 (Supertech, supposedly) valves had begun to mushroom badly. One of them had pulled through the keeper and was dangerously close to being dropped in the engine. That would have spelled instant doom for the engine.

More than likely (and this is a guess) it was detonation, so over time, it just weakened things until something finally gave. Perhaps a piston, or even a rod. You won't really know until the engine is torn down.

250 WHP is going to be tough on a street engine, IMO, but if you hit it, tell us how you did it!

I'm at 204 WHP on stock rods, pistons, and cams. I just have the hell milled out of the head. The squish is actually quite close, and when I did the math, I only had a 10.6:1 CR, so I'm curious how you got such a high CR!

MDoyle · 02-23-2006, 09:42 AM

Damn, sorry to hear about that. Definately open it up and take some pictures so it can be diagnosed.

It sucks, i've been in the same position a couple of times.

Artifex · 02-23-2006, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LVSBB6

So I got the car towed to my mechanicâ€™s shop, he pulled the plugs out and was shocked. The plug from cylinder #2 has been partially melted or crushed in. At this point its hard to tell whether it was hit or melted but the tip of the plug including part of the threaded area was badly damaged. Thereâ€™s a very good chance something has dropped in the chamber. However, the other plugs in cylinder #1, 3 & 4 were in perfect shape

Wow that royally sucks, I'm sorry to hear about it.

Billy's suggestions are right on, definitely go down his checklist once the motor is apart.

Regarding your O2 sensor readings, how sure are you that your wideband was calibrated to your EMS? I spent quite awhile making sure my WB readings were consistent with my EMS before I did anything at full load. Was your WBO2 sensor mounted in the stock location?

71dsp · 02-23-2006, 05:03 PM

I redid my calc, and I was off, my milling bumped CR to around 10.8:1.

If you don't mind me asking, do you recall what your piston to head, valve to piston (at various cam gear settings), and valve to valve clearances were? I need to look up the specs on the JUN cams, but I'm dying to put in these roller cams and roller rockers that I have, and if I could use my (greatly) milled head and still have plenty of clearance with either Type S, CP, or Wiseco pistons, I would be VERY happy! The engine is together, so I can't just do a clay test on the fly right now.

Also, you say you had your cam gears set at 0, 0. Is that 0 on the cam gear, or 0 at TDC? Was the cam timing corrected for the head milling?

berkshire40 · 02-23-2006, 09:48 PM

sucks about your motor man. all i can say is: i feel your pain

do an h22 stroker with type-s pistons. may require custom rods though... just a thought i wanted to do it with an offset grind on my crank but the rods were mucho bux plus a long lead time

BLACKISWHACK · 02-23-2006, 10:48 PM

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo

71dsp · 02-24-2006, 04:53 AM

Why would you spend all that money to do a stroker and then use Type S pistons??

Quote:

Originally Posted by berkshire40

sucks about your motor man. all i can say is: i feel your pain

do an h22 stroker with type-s pistons. may require custom rods though... just a thought i wanted to do it with an offset grind on my crank but the rods were mucho bux plus a long lead time

LVSBB6 · 02-24-2006, 08:45 AM

The cam gears were set at (0, 0) themselves, so it wasn't corrected for the head milling. I was going to find out on the dyno the following weekend. Anyway, would that be the cause of my VTEC hiccup cutting in and out?

I wasn't informed about the actual clearance, the machine shop clayed it and said it was all good to go. And it was infact, I didn't have any problems for the first 3000 miles.

Since your head is milled even greater than mine, you will end up with less tolerance than I did with those rollers cams. I think my setup was very tight indeed. Wait until I find out what really happened in my motor first, I don't want to hear another tragic story..

Quote:

Originally Posted by 71dsp

I redid my calc, and I was off, my milling bumped CR to around 10.8:1.

If you don't mind me asking, do you recall what your piston to head, valve to piston (at various cam gear settings), and valve to valve clearances were? I need to look up the specs on the JUN cams, but I'm dying to put in these roller cams and roller rockers that I have, and if I could use my (greatly) milled head and still have plenty of clearance with either Type S, CP, or Wiseco pistons, I would be VERY happy! The engine is together, so I can't just do a clay test on the fly right now.

Also, you say you had your cam gears set at 0, 0. Is that 0 on the cam gear, or 0 at TDC? Was the cam timing corrected for the head milling?

71dsp · 02-24-2006, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LVSBB6

The cam gears were set at (0, 0) themselves, so it wasn't corrected for the head milling. I was going to find out on the dyno the following weekend. Anyway, would that be the cause of my VTEC hiccup cutting in and out?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LVSBB6

I wasn't informed about the actual clearance, the machine shop clayed it and said it was all good to go. And it was infact, I didn't have any problems for the first 3000 miles.

Arg. I can't find the sheet with my clearances from when I clayed my engine, so I don't know how much room I have. I need to look up the JUN specs, as the cam card on these roller cams say the net lift is 0.472 and 0.457, which is a bit more than stock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LVSBB6

Since your head is milled even greater than mine, you will end up with less tolerance than I did with those rollers cams. I think my setup was very tight indeed. Wait until I find out what really happened in my motor first, I don't want to hear another tragic story..

My head is milled more, but I used a full head gasket. Also, I'm smart enough to clay the engine entirely before I do any final assembly.

LVSBB6 · 02-24-2006, 11:45 AM

Jun cams spec: http://www.junauto.co.jp/products/cy...ft-h22.html?en

Quote:

Originally Posted by 71dsp

Arg. I can't find the sheet with my clearances from when I clayed my engine, so I don't know how much room I have. I need to look up the JUN specs, as the cam card on these roller cams say the net lift is 0.472 and 0.457, which is a bit more than stock.

71dsp · 02-24-2006, 06:40 PM

That's an assload of lift. The Crane cams I'm hoping to use are close, but not quite that much lift.

71dsp · 02-25-2006, 07:33 AM

Were your Type S pistons oversized? Did you have the block honed prior to having the pistons installed? I'm curious to see what the cylinder walls look like.

Did they follow the procedure in the Helms, if you had them honed? The Honda blocks don't need the paste that some of the other FRM blocks require when honing. I'm thinking of trying these OS Type S pistons, and I've been mulling over the procedure and whatnot, plus doing tons of research. It seems that the Honda FRM are vastly different than other FRM blocks on the market.

eolife22 · 02-27-2006, 09:51 AM

I dont know sh*t about any of this...but something simular happened to a friend of mines 95 5spd Maxima.....White smoke and all....He towed to the shoped...and when they took out one of his spark plugs it looked like the tip was squished or chopped off or something. Basicaly he had to replace the motor......I dont really remember but the mech. said it had something to do with revving too high, and putting the plug too low or puttng the plug in wrong? Dont really remember what he told em.....put the symptons were EXACTLLY the same........

precisionelite · 02-27-2006, 07:08 PM

my condolences...i hope you have better luck w/your next build.