In the March 2006 issue of Honda Tuning is an article about using Mahle Gold Series pistons in an H22 w/o sleeving. I know these pistons have been discussed before but nobody knew if you could really use them with the bare FRM walls. Well apparently the Gold Series pistons are specially coated to work with the H22's FRM cylinder walls. The non-Gold Series pistons would require sleeves. The article focused on installing some 11.5 CR pistons in an JDM H22A. Upon taking the head off they saw the usual cylinder wall scoring that plagues so many H22s. So they overbored block to 0.25mm over.
Also according to the article when you machine a sleeveless all-aluminum block you have to use special abrasive pads instead of traditional cutters. And the shop used a special gel that "brought silicon up to the surface" although I suspect the gel deposited silicon on the surface. Still it's clear machining an H22 is unlike a lot of other blocks. I wonder how many times this fact has screwed up an H22 build.
Anyways this would be good news for those attempting NA engine builds. Or even those who want to build a motor for boost but no go with sleeves.
__________________ Paul
2009 Mazdaspeed3 | 1995 Miata | 1999 Crystal Blue Base - bought 6/13/02, sold 3/11/09
Also according to the article when you machine a sleeveless all-aluminum block you have to use special abrasive pads instead of traditional cutters. And the shop used a special gel that "brought silicon up to the surface" although I suspect the gel deposited silicon on the surface. Still it's clear machining an H22 is unlike a lot of other blocks. I wonder how many times this fact has screwed up an H22 build.
Anyways this would be good news for those attempting NA engine builds. Or even those who want to build a motor for boost but no go with sleeves.
I call bullsh1t on this. The Helms clearly specifies what needs to be done for honing, and it doesn't mention anything about this. Furthremore, I know several very reputable builders using traditional dingleberry hones on the h22 bores with no issues at all.
My guess is that they fuxxored up the piston to wall clearance.
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^^And that was really the point of the thread. Anytime something new like this comes up no one is willing to take the gamble with that much money. And I don't blame them. But here a magazine has taken the plunge for us and hopefully we can keep track of the reliability of these pistons.
BTW... the thread was supposed to be about the pistons, not the boring procedure. I got sidetracked.
__________________ Paul
2009 Mazdaspeed3 | 1995 Miata | 1999 Crystal Blue Base - bought 6/13/02, sold 3/11/09
I dunno. I am just reporting on what I read. Maybe a letter to Honda Tuning asking them to clarify or site thier sources is on order.
Sorry my reply was not directed at you. I'm just really really tired of people not bothering to understand the basics when dealing with H22 bores.
Just for sh1ts and giggles, I would like to read the article. I wonder if someone can scan it and post it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 71dsp
Are they saying that the H22A4 is a sleeve-less block? If so, even the Helm's says the block uses FRM liners.
Aww come on now Billy, you know better.
FRM is cast into the block. It is an alloy of fiber and alumina (read the N/A library link). IIRC is about 0.3" deep, and then becomes solid aluminum. It is impregnated into the block at the time of the casting. My guess is that they bore and hone out the cylinders to be more perfectly round after the initial casting process.
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Yes, but I'm just picking on technicalities. Is it really sleeve-less? Isn't the FRM acting as a sleeve? The article almost makes it sound like the block and sleeves are made out of the same material.
Anyway, I have a set of OS Type S pistons that I wouldn't mind putting in my current engine for NPM. It made 204 WHP with 5 miles on the engine, so the Type S pistons might be a good bump in power. A local machine shop has done one other H22 bore/hone for Todd and they did it according to the Helms. I don't recall the specifics, but Todd mentioned that the stones aren't really "stones", and the set only lasted long enough to bore/hone 1 block, so they charge a bit more. I don't know the fate of that engine, though. AFAIK, it hasn't even been started yet.
Just installing them won't really tell us much. You'll need to install then take the head off (at a minimum) after you have some miles on the engine. The preferred method would be to measure everything before, install, get a few thousand miles on the engine, then tear it back down and remeasure everything, unfortunately.
Again, if you don't take it apart, your install really won't tell us anything, unfortunately. If it frags the engine in 5k miles, then you won't have to take it apart. Hopefully it runs fine, I'm just curious to see the cylinder wall wear after say 10k miles.
If anyone thinks that Mahle pistons are unreliable ask any Porsche owner. Porsches have FRM blocks and come with Mahle pistons from the factory. I'll be ordering a set for ****s and giggles but when I turbo the motor it's gonna get sleeved anyway.
It seems that the FRM blocks that Porsche, Mercedes, et al use are vastly different than the FRM used in Honda blocks. The Honda's don't require the final step with the lap paste, so you're comparing apples to oranges when comparing Porsche FRM blocks with Hondas.
From Goodson's tech (for those that don't know, Goodson is one of the premier engine rebuilding suppliers):
Quote:
What´s the proper method of honing an aluminum cylinder liner in the new Honda block?
The Honda block is not a high silicon block. No special lap paste is used. Honda uses Fiber Reinforced Metal (FRM) in the SR series engines. The cylinders are made of up of fibers of carbon and alumina (aluminum oxide) in the aluminum alloy. Boring and honing exposes new hard surfaces of these materials providing the interference for piston rings and skirts.
You must use a fixed hone or a manual/auto hone cabinet when finishing your bores. Tom Hawkins from Sunnen technical services group, recommends the following abrasives and usage:
• Auto machines - roughing JHN-623, finishing JHN-818
• Portables - roughing C30-J63, finishing C30-J84.
Use a normal pressure and 45-50 RPM while honing with standard hone oil (HO-10 or HO-50).
Honda recommends five cycles of honing at a time, removing the hone to clean any aluminum embedded in the stones and checking material removal rate for final bore size.
AERA reports the following: For FRM cylinder bores during manufacture, a rigid hone using a GC-600-J or finer stone designed for non-ferrous metal was used to finish the cyliders. Honing pressure should be adjusted to 29-43 psi (200-300 kpa) while rotating at a 45-50 RPM. This should result in a crosshatch pattern of 60 degrees for proper ring seal. To prevent stone loading and debris build up, cleaning the stones every five cycles is recommended.
After honing, scrub the cylinders with hot soapy water. Rinse with clear water and dry. Solvents are NEVER recommended for cylinder cleaning as they only redistribute residual hone oil and grit into the finish giving a false clean appearance.
Special thanks to Sunnen and AERA for their input.
I'll probably try the procedure in the Helms when installing my OS Type S pistons. I'll be sure to take before pictures and measurements, then do some track events and pull the head again to see how the cylinder walls look.
Also note that the procedure in the Helms doesn't say anything about special lubricant or the lapping paste.
It seems that the FRM blocks that Porsche, Mercedes, et al use are vastly different than the FRM used in Honda blocks. The Honda's don't require the final step with the lap paste, so you're comparing apples to oranges when comparing Porsche FRM blocks with Hondas.
From Goodson's tech (for those that don't know, Goodson is one of the premier engine rebuilding suppliers):
I'll probably try the procedure in the Helms when installing my OS Type S pistons. I'll be sure to take before pictures and measurements, then do some track events and pull the head again to see how the cylinder walls look.
Also note that the procedure in the Helms doesn't say anything about special lubricant or the lapping paste.
Wow, that is an extraordinary find. I think that is Library material. Thanks Billy for that piece of information.
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I gave that info printed out to my machine shop when I dropped off my h22 a few weeks back. Everything came out great.
I could have sworn I saw that posted before...
I've owned and built 4 porsches and the only difference between the cylinders is the finish. The purpose of lapping compound is to polish the cylinder walls nothing more. Porsches require super slick cylinder walls for the rings to seat properly. My uncle also worked for porsche as a mechanic for several years and now is a mechanic at a shop that works mainly with exotics. His friend owns a machine shop which speacializes in posches and honda's(son's side) and thay have said the differences in structure are minimal.
I would like to see some pics! I am planning on putting in high compression pistions (12:1) and was planning on sleeving my block... but if these work out I might try those out! Oh ya and my new honda tuning mag came in today and they have another article on these pistons matched with stage 3 crowers making 210whp. I could scan this article and last months if anyone is interested.
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Hopefully it runs fine, I'm just curious to see the cylinder wall wear after say 10k miles.
I'll be ordering a set for ****s and giggles but when I turbo the motor it's gonna get sleeved anyway.
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