I have 195k on my lude so a rebuild is just about needed. I have been saving for my NA build for some time I just recently have been looking for parts. here is what I have so far.
(Note: Car is my daily driver and I don't want a crazy race overkill setep.)
(after my bottem end work I will be saving for the head work)
Sleeved H22
shot peen rods
Bore and hone
micro-polish crank
JE pistons 11.5:1
new head gasket + all new seals etc.
bearings
all that so far has come to about 2500$ with labor charges.
I would do the work myself but I just don't have all special tools.
If anyone would give any advice or comments on this setup please help out.
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Jun cams, Jun PnP, Jun VT, JE 11.5:1, Crower Rods, AEBS T sleeved, RMF 4-1 on the way, JG-E.D. IM on order. Moroso Pan, JDM LSD, Greddy PE, Koyo cooling, P72, Hondata s200...etc soooooon
"win some lose some but always keep it real"-Jeremy
If you're not looking to boost or make crazy amounts of power, I'd do sleeve liners instead of resleeving the block. That's what I'm doing. I'm using Darton replacement ductile iron liners. They're much cheaper (about $500 installed) than full sleeves ($800 to $1300+), and they still stiffen the sleeves while giving you the advantages of ductile iron for forged pistons.
If money is an issue, I wouldn't worry about micro-polishing. The factory cranks come very well finished.
If you're wanting to make reliable power, I'd use some of that money to shot peen and deburr the stock rods for new aftermarket rods. The big end on the H22 rod is the weak point, and it easily egged. If you want to keep the engine in the upper RPM range, take a look at aftermarket rods. Eagle is perhaps the cheapest, but their rod bolts are the weak point. I'd stick with Crower or Manley. I'm going to give the Manley rods a try on mine.
Make sure you use Honda bearings. There's nothing better.
- don't bother rebuilding the bottom end unless you actually have problems or are looking for performance benefits. What you have outlined won't make a big power difference anyhow. Unless you are blowing smoke or low compression it is probably not worth your money.
- I wouldn't spend the money on Crower or Manley rods if you aren't looking to bump the rev limiter. The Eagle cheapies are much stronger than stock at a much lower price than the higher-end rods. I would recommend them for a budget build.
- I would not recommend 11.5:1 pistons on pump gas ANYWHERE without a good fuel management system. I think you will probably run into issue with knocking.
Not to be argumentative (because Todd and I always debate things like this), but here's the way I see it:
If he's planning to build the head, why not start with a solid bottom end? The engine has 195k miles on it, so it really wouldn't be a bad idea to freshen up the bottom end.
The high CR could be a problem without proper tuning. With such a build up, I just assumed that fuel and timing tuning would be part of the deal. I think Joel is running close to 12:1 without a real stand alone system, and he seems to be doing okay. Take that for what it's worth, but a complete fuel and timing control setup would be better.
Yes, the Eagle rods are much cheaper, almost 1/2 the price, but if he ever does decide to run higher than stock redline, or much higher than stock power, his build will be better served by rods that use better rod bolts. One could resize the Eagle rods to take ARP rod bolts, but what's the use? Just buy better rods to begin with. I will add that I have never heard of an Eagle rod failing where the rod breaks. All of the Eagle rod failures I have read about is where the rod bolts stretched and broke, which obviously trashes the bottom end. I like to err on the side of caution with things like this. I am one for overkill, and Todd will agree, so my suggestion for Manley, Crower, Carillo, and the like rods is a bit extreme in your situation. I'll agree with Todd by saying that Eagle rods will work best for you unless you plan to run above the stock rev limit.
One other thing to consider is smog. 11.5 compression might be hard to get my the sniffer.
Have you budgeted money for a new oil pump, water pump, timing belt, and all of those necessities? Also head gasket, etc. etc.?
One last thing, if you're going to build the bottom end, you might as well balance it as well. Be prepared to send off your crank, crank pulley, flywheel, and pressure plate to get the balancing done right. Also have the rods and pistons balanced.
Running 12:1 on a previously tuned ecu and a V-AFC. I would say timng was backed off slightly on the old ecu tune for the H23 VTEC, but could be advanced on this build. I haven't looked into it, but if I had a scan tool cause I'm OBDII I could read the timing right off of it to make sure,
He's probably not worried about the 11.5:1 CR because another 4th gen is running that on his built bottom end, from the same shop. (I'm assuming you're talking about Blacktraxx, Jeremy)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExodusFX
It doesn't matter what kind of icecream you get in Mochi. Why? Because Mochi is icecream wrapped in awesome.
Should be fine on pump gas + octane boost. I have 11:1 JE's and shaved head which brings the comp to about what you're planning and I'm fine with pump gas + octane boost and 15deg base timing (stock). I do knock when I don't use octane boost. An aftermarket ignition would be a good idea too.
Why "freshen up" (Read: spend hundreds or more) a bottom end that blows good compression? A lot of people think that they need to spend money on a motor simply because of age. It's just not true. If the rings seal good and the engine is strong... why?
If you are going to add serious power (not just headwork), bump the rev limiter (more stress on the bottom end, change out pistons, run nitrous, FI, etc., then yes- you should go with stronger rods and while it's all apart rebuild it. If you are making good compression, though, I would say at most to maybe check the bearings. There's just no need to spend money on it if it's running good and you are not going to stress the OE parts more.
Unless you are adding a few hundred HP Eagle rods should hold up just fine. I thought Eagles came with ARP2000 fasteners, at least that's what the last set I saw came with.
This didn't sound like a 450HP turbo build which is why I said what I said. Money no object, yes, overbuilding is a wonderful idea.
Like Marcucci is saying, build the head first if your bottom end is still in good condition. Now if you want to run big cams, then you'll need to run higher compression pistons, which would give you a reason to rebuild the bottom end. However, from your post it seems like you are just looking to freshen up a motor that may or may not need refreshing.
Originally posted by marcucci Why "freshen up" (Read: spend hundreds or more) a bottom end that blows good compression? A lot of people think that they need to spend money on a motor simply because of age. It's just not true. If the rings seal good and the engine is strong... why?
If the bottom end blows good compression, then perhaps he could get away with not rebuilding the bottom end for now, however, he never says this in his post. I'm not arguing that he needs a bottom end rebuild. I am simply answering his question.
Even if the engine is strong (relatively speaking) that doesn't mean that everything is within spec. I think it's a good idea on an engine with high miles to at least check some of the more critical areas prior to starting a "serious" NA build.
Quote:
Originally posted by marcucci Unless you are adding a few hundred HP Eagle rods should hold up just fine. I thought Eagles came with ARP2000 fasteners, at least that's what the last set I saw came with.
Nope, not unless you get their "heavy duty" rods which are a bit more expensive than the standard run of the mill Eagle rods.
The standard Eagle rods run around $310 from most shops, IIRC, and the heavy duty rods will probably run a bit over $400. Still much cheaper than Crower or Manley, which run about $625 a set.
Here's a couple of web sites that have the Eagle rods with the ARP rod bolt upgrade:
wow thanks guys for all the imput.
Ok heres some questions and more info on what I want .
I do have an old engine. (compression is going--going--down)
I have been planning on running a strong NA setup.
I want to use nitrous (not too sure on the size but I want my engine to handle it safely)
I agree that I don't want to overbuild something.
And yes this setup will be a refresh of the old.(but a strong ass refresh)
I'm still in the decision phaze so that is what I'm working with.
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Jun cams, Jun PnP, Jun VT, JE 11.5:1, Crower Rods, AEBS T sleeved, RMF 4-1 on the way, JG-E.D. IM on order. Moroso Pan, JDM LSD, Greddy PE, Koyo cooling, P72, Hondata s200...etc soooooon
"win some lose some but always keep it real"-Jeremy
Well, WHY is it losing compression? It could be something simple ya know? Just because the compression is dropping, that doesn't mean that every component in the bottom end is phucked.
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Josh's '92 Milano Si (5spd)- The mod list is growing!!
jer dawg all you got to do is give me your lude, and you got nothting to worry about. but who's doin the work? it better be blacktrax, cause you know you can trust them. else we can go to NAT NAT and JEI house and kick their shiny ass, and we alreayd know where alex live. so we just got oikie
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95 Si. 10/22/06 Sold, but never gotten.
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