Discussion : H22 (NA Build) - Oil system limitations
On the H22 series motors, is the factory oil pump, oil pressure, and oil pump gear up to the task of facilitating long life of the bottom end in a high-output built NA engine seeing 8-9k RPM and well OVER 200 whp?
I have seen that some people building their motors for high output NA are buying the Prodrive oil pump gear. I know that many H'series owners have spun bearings (due to lack of proper oiling in some peoples opinions). Would you say that this is due to much higher than factory power output or higher RPM? Or a combination of both maybe? What are the weak links in the oil system for this kind of a build...if any? When do the limitations come in to play?
Lets discuss this and share our experiences. It seems like a lot more people are cracking open the H22 series engines these days. If people are going to be building their motors, we need to be able to prevent the bottom end from giving out, and it seems to be happening in a decent amount of cases.
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I think the spun rods are from power not oil. All the spun rods i have seen have been on turbocharged cars. The stock oil system is good for most NA setups......you can get the prodrive gears, they wont hurt.......I considered them, but decided they werent necessarry. I went with an oil cooler instead
isnt the prodrive gear just a better manufactured but stock spec gear? i was under the impression that it was just less prone to shatter under extreme conditions, not that it did anything differently than the stock gear. someone set me straight here..
im curious as well, whats the weakest link in the flow of oil throughout the H22?
If it's true about the ProDrive gear being a stronger OEM-spec gear and not really increasing the volume/flow of oil in/around the block ....then is it even possible to do so?
From what I understand the ProDrive unit is made to stock specs. It doesn't not increase the output of the oil pump.
Larry from Endyn says he can modify the oil pump by porting and smoothing the passages in the oil pump. He claims that by doing this, he has actually had problems with too much oil pressure, so he installs a softer bypass spring to lower the oil pressure.
Others have also stated that running clearances that are a tad on the loose side and shimming the bypass spring on the stock oil pump is the way to go.
I think that some, if not all, of the problem stems from oil starvation during cornering, acceleration, or deceleration. The pickup on the H22 pump is not in a very good location, and the pan is not baffled at all.
I've looked into custom pans, but they are quite expensive. I'm also not a big fan of the pump being driven off of the crankshaft, as the more power you generate the more the crankshaft can flex and vibrate (which, as I understand it, ruins the stock oil pumps, especially with high RPM usage). The only way around this, though is to run an external wet sump or a dry sump system. Either solution will be VERY expensive and require quite a bit of custom fabrication.
I don't see an external wet sump or dry sump system being practical on a street car, as there's no way to drive the pump. I have corresponded with a company that has been doing some research into an H22 dry sump system, but the pump will sit where the A/C compressor fits, which makes it a race only type of setup (at least in the southern US). The problems are clearance and heat from the header. Cost is also another consideration, as a dry sump system with a 3 (or so) stage pump, tank, oil pan, and plumbing will run close to, if not in excess of, $3k. It IS the ultimate solution to these problems, though. A dry sump system will reduce crank windage, induce crankcase vacuum, and never run dry. So, not only will a dry sump system "fix" all of the weaknesses of the stock system, it will actually free up more power!
I think for most purposes, with cost being a consideration, a custom pan with a custom pickup is the best alternative.
Good post. So do you really feel the Prodrive Oil Pump Gear is a necessary item? I want to get into road racing and possibly autocross. I don't want anything on the bottom end to fail and I will be reving higher than stock rev-limit. In stock form should it be ok? I'm also removing the balance shafts and plugging them, which will increase oil pressure some.
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Originally posted by Mike95lude Good post. So do you really feel the Prodrive Oil Pump Gear is a necessary item? I want to get into road racing and possibly autocross. I don't want anything on the bottom end to fail and I will be reving higher than stock rev-limit. In stock form should it be ok? I'm also removing the balance shafts and plugging them, which will increase oil pressure some.
I'm not 100% convinced that the ProDrive oil pump gear is necessary for a big NA buildup, but for the cost, it's additional insurance. Sure, it's very expensive, but compared to rebuilding a block because you frag'ed an oil pump, it's cheap.
I think the money is better spent on a custom oil pan and pickup with provisions to always keep the pickup in oil under all conditions. Custom pans, from what I have seen, run anywhere from $300 to $450+, then you have to add in the cost of a custom pickup. I'd like to contact some of the custom oil pan companies like Stef's to see if we could get a small production run done, but I'm not holding my breath.
Have you actually seen anything that Larry has produced? I mean, the guy says a lot - a whole ton - but I've never actually seen him deliver.
I saw Sun's head before Larry shipped it off. I also have saw James' head. Both looked very good. Whether or not they performed, I don't know. I have also seen his Civic and Type R, and I'd assume he did the work on those. Otherwise, I have seen very little of his work. His shop is pretty close to where I live, about 25 minutes away.
Originally posted by 71dsp From what I understand the ProDrive unit is made to stock specs. It doesn't not increase the output of the oil pump.
Larry from Endyn says he can modify the oil pump by porting and smoothing the passages in the oil pump. He claims that by doing this, he has actually had problems with too much oil pressure, so he installs a softer bypass spring to lower the oil pressure.
Others have also stated that running clearances that are a tad on the loose side and shimming the bypass spring on the stock oil pump is the way to go.
I think that some, if not all, of the problem stems from oil starvation during cornering, acceleration, or deceleration. The pickup on the H22 pump is not in a very good location, and the pan is not baffled at all.
I've looked into custom pans, but they are quite expensive. I'm also not a big fan of the pump being driven off of the crankshaft, as the more power you generate the more the crankshaft can flex and vibrate (which, as I understand it, ruins the stock oil pumps, especially with high RPM usage). The only way around this, though is to run an external wet sump or a dry sump system. Either solution will be VERY expensive and require quite a bit of custom fabrication.
I don't see an external wet sump or dry sump system being practical on a street car, as there's no way to drive the pump. I have corresponded with a company that has been doing some research into an H22 dry sump system, but the pump will sit where the A/C compressor fits, which makes it a race only type of setup (at least in the southern US). The problems are clearance and heat from the header. Cost is also another consideration, as a dry sump system with a 3 (or so) stage pump, tank, oil pan, and plumbing will run close to, if not in excess of, $3k. It IS the ultimate solution to these problems, though. A dry sump system will reduce crank windage, induce crankcase vacuum, and never run dry. So, not only will a dry sump system "fix" all of the weaknesses of the stock system, it will actually free up more power!
I think for most purposes, with cost being a consideration, a custom pan with a custom pickup is the best alternative.
that would make great sense also I know from a personal basis, and bear with me I am a 3rd gen owner, but it seems that all the spun bearing I have ever dealt with have also to deal with most Rod bearings, but one technique that I have just recently been enlightened to is chamferring the oil passages and not so much the crank bearings, becuase they already have the groove going in a 360 degree rotation, but more on the rod bearings, in fact this chamfering is almos to a point where you can have either a straight line chamfer, or V-path, or fan-out. Also as far as going dry during hard cornering and under extreme g-forces, what about an accusump system???
Larry:
Billy and I have both seen his work. I can't say that he doesn't BS or screw people out of money, but I can tell you he is definitely for real. His knowledge base, hardware, articles, former presence in the domestic market, and capabilities (from the work/products we have seen) speak volumes.
I personally think that most of the spun bearings come from oiling and not "horsepower." When it comes to turbo vehicles, I have seen all kinds of screwball setups for oil feeds and returns, and many owners who are only marginally more clueless than the shops that performed the installs.
As for the pumps... I have disassembled a few that were from H22's of various miles and "abuse" and have not seen one yet that was damaged. I can't recall if Billy's was or not... I know he had crank bearing galling with 40k+ miles and a few seasons of autocrossing. Inspecting DR's motor after 45k miles of HARD autox/track time (the last 20k miles almost no street miles) he had NO galling or damage, the bearings looked brand new. That's with a UR crank pulley and prior to an oil cooler or any other oiling mods.
I have yet to be convinced that a Prodrive gear is needed but as mentioned, it is insurance. For the build without a price limit it is a necessity. For the budget racer who is doing everything else "right," I think that it is a waste. Inspect the bottom end after 10-20k miles and if the #1 and #2 bearings are galled, replace the pump/gear then. I'd also try and find out why the bearings are being galled.
hell yes, I know on my end the biggest issue I have always been thrown is becuase the stroke of the motor is so much that when you reach a certain RPM or visit it quite frequently, which for my car is 7 grande that is what really puts the strain on the bearings especially becuase of the velocity generated by the piston/rod combo. Oh well it sucks, the only thing I can ever think of doing is go the route of shimming the oil pump, running looser clearances, and then chamferring the oil passages on the rod bearings.
It should be noted that the ProDrive gear doesn't make the oil pump perform better, just more reliably. I have yet to see a shattered oil pump gear, though.
I believe most of the problems stem from oil starvation during cornering, acceleration, and deceleration. An Accusump will help here, but I think that's more of a band aid than a fix for the problem. I think a properly baffled pan, or an external system would work best.
Originally posted by 71dsp I believe most of the problems stem from oil starvation during cornering, acceleration, and deceleration. An Accusump will help here, but I think that's more of a band aid than a fix for the problem. I think a properly baffled pan, or an external system would work best.
Are there any off the shelf pan options that would provide this?
__________________
-Mike Import Replacement Parts Toll Free Phone: 1-888-378-7278 Local/International Phone: 1-425-357-6818
Mon-Fri 8:00am-5:00 pm PST -Replacement and Performance Parts for all Import Automobiles- E-mail: sales@importrp.com
well I understand what you're saying but the accusump has been proven time and time again especially on a lot of cars running in the Honda Challenge, but since we are on the subject of running with band-aids, don't you feel a V-afc is more of a band-aid to tuning rather than getting hondata, or an ems. It's all about doing what's in peoples means, and right now an Accu-sump does very well and costs on average of 120-160 for the whole setup, whereas the baffled pan and the bells and whistles for the dry-sump system can go from 500-1800, for the more elaborate systems.
Originally posted by reyke well I understand what you're saying but the accusump has been proven time and time again especially on a lot of cars running in the Honda Challenge, but since we are on the subject of running with band-aids, don't you feel a V-afc is more of a band-aid to tuning rather than getting hondata, or an ems.
Yes I do. That's why I do not have a VAFC, but I am hoping to use an EMS.
I think you're quote about the Honda Challenge might be a bit skewed, especially if they are not allowed to change the oil pan. If the rules dictate that the stock oil pan must be used, then you have no choice. An Accusump is your only solution (not that it's a bad solution).
Quote:
Originally posted by reyke It's all about doing what's in peoples means, and right now an Accu-sump does very well and costs on average of 120-160 for the whole setup, whereas the baffled pan and the bells and whistles for the dry-sump system can go from 500-1800, for the more elaborate systems.
$120 to $160 for an Accusump setup installed? The 2 quart Accusump unit alone runs about $160. I would opt for a 3 quart unit, though.
In addition, you're going to need a valve (manual is only $10, electric is $100), a check valve ($15), block adapter ($30 to $50), and all the necessary plumbing. I wouldn't do anything smaller than -10 on the plumbing, so you're looking at $5 to $6 per foot of hose, and $7 to $20 per fitting.
Let's say you buy the 3 quart accusump, manual valve, a mid-priced block adapater, 6 fittings, and say 15 feet of hose. I really think you'll need more hose, but we'll say 15 feet.
To get the maximum benefit of the Accusump (pre-oiling) the valve really needs to be in the passenger compartment so you can open and close it right before and after starting or shutting down the engine. That's only one of the reasons I'd use SS braided hose.
Anyway, so we're looking at:
$170 for the Accusump
$15 for the check valve
$14 for a -10 tee fitting
$40 for a block adapter (roughly)
$60 for fittings (say they average to $10 each)
$75 for 15 ft. of -10 SS braid hose.
Total: $374. That's a lot more than your estimate! That's still cheaper than a custom oil pan, though, and MUCH cheaper than an external setup.
Now don't get me wrong, an Accusump IS a good idea on any race car. However, I think that on the H22, it would be used on a constant basis. Perhaps that's okay, as it will keep the engine from tearing itself up due to oil starvation, but that doesn't solve the root cause of the problem, the oil pan itself.
That being said, I do plan to use an Accusump on my car, eventually. However, I also very interested in doing something with the oil pan to cure the actual problem instead of just installing a band aid. I suppose I look at it as one more additional system added to the car that can fail, leak, have problems, needs to be checked, etc. The simpler you can keep the lubrication and cooling system, the better off you are, IMO.
Read up on the Accusump. There are plenty of opinions out there, and for every racer that favors the Accusump, I can find one that's against it.
Don't "overshim" the oil pump... I did that and it resulted in 3 "blownup" oil filters at 4000 rpm (literally.. like a frozen pop can)
2mm is prob about the max..
As for a baffled oil pan. Mugen makes one for the Type R.. I had apattern from it and we planning on modifing my Prelude pan.. But the guy I lent them to took of never to be seen again.. so if any of you find a Mugen baffled pan I would really appreciate if you could take some pics and measurement of it for me again. It seemed pretty simple... but the "ports" looked to be placed in in strategic locations and the baffle shapes were pretty specific.
BTW I'm running a Prodrive pump as well.. Shimmed 1.5 mm.. I have seen a shattered OEM pump but not from a Prelude..
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