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Old 02-08-2002, 06:55 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spocko
Personally I think UR should come up with a harmonically balanced lightened pulley and then they would sell a lot more of them- I'd buy one for sure, and adding one can't be that heavy compared to the stock one.
If UR ever came out with it, I'd get it too.
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Old 02-08-2002, 07:04 PM   #42 (permalink)
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You'll learn before long who to listen to and who not to. I know you turn up a lot of "****" in a search, I had to wade through 3 pages of it to find Billy's original post on this and unorthodox's reply.

Quote:
does harmonically balanced just simply mean the pulley is balanced? supposedly UR claims that thier pulleys are balanced correctly.
NO. And UR doesn't balance the pulley's; they are CNC machined out of what I hope is a high-grade material. Assuming the material doesn't have some funky weight distribution or uneven mass, you can assume that if you hold your tolerances to .xx% that your balance will be very similar. They claim that the problem are "knock off" pullies. I'm sorry, but you can't convince me that the knock-offs use much lower grade equipment... or that UR employs some magical equipment that holds better-than-good tolerances.

It's not the issue though; "harmonically balanced" does NOT refer to balance. It refers to... you guessed it, "harmonics" and balancing/dampening the resonances normally associated with "4 banging." Do you think Honda employs a harmonic balancer that uses two huge pieces of metal and a rubber sandwich because they think it's cheap? Hell no! UR's method of mfg. is MUCH cheaper. Keep in mind that almost the single biggest factor in an automobile's design is cost savings, second only to aesthetic design, or maybe third to emissions.

Quote:
anyway, hopefully someone can can answer this, if i did end up putting my stock pulley back on would it matter that there are a couple groves on the inside edge from when i had to use a pipe wrench to get the damn thing off? I'm afraid that my stock pulley isn't balanced anymore anyway....
Good Lord. Leave the UR on, you don't seem convinced/worried anyhow. You can be our test mule. Hey, only one guy had a problem, right?

Quote:
how did you guys get ur stock one off without a pipe wrench the damn thing was on so incredibly tight
Invest in a gear puller. You can buy one at Sears.
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Old 02-08-2002, 07:12 PM   #43 (permalink)
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though i usually dont bother with these threads since they come up so often... i still jsut want to say im another UR user (all 3 peices) and been on it for quite some time. no problems at all
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Old 02-08-2002, 08:53 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I say no. Get the Fisher crank damper (if you really want a light crank pulley), AEM pulleys and have $100 for some new CDs, a strut bar or something, or save the money and get really light wheels.
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Old 02-08-2002, 09:07 PM   #45 (permalink)
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id also like to say im a UR crank pulley owner..
and btw billy couldnt sue UR cuz he didnt by a UR crank pulley
but hey.. if it works it works.. btw spocko.. dont you find it unethical to sell a UR crank pulley to another Prelude Online member if you feel it was so bad!? heheh.. btw whats UP WITH THE TURBO!!!!
and also.. vibration has ALOT to do with what goes in or not in a car.. NHV!!! any differnces between an nsx and a nsx type s 0, or type r crank pulley? or civic si and a CTR? wonder what mugen runs on their circut cars
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Old 02-08-2002, 09:59 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HoNdAHaXoR
wonder what mugen runs on their circut cars
Whatever the hell Mugen runs, they don't run them for 10,000 miles a year with no rebuilds. It doesn't matter that Billy's crank pulley was not a UR one. The main point is that is that it was a solid crank pulley the same as the UR one is. It's the fundamental design, not URs special magic with tolerances or whatever. If by vibrations you are worried about tolerances in Billy's generic pulley, I doubt they would be any worse than the clunky cast thing that Honda put there. Simply the crank pulley has nothing to do with balancing in our engine. The crankshaft is already balanced and the pulley has no bearing on balance (and vibrations due to balance) whatsoever. The crank pulley DOES affect vibrations from the shock of the power stroke with the natural harmonic frequency of the crank (which will amplify the vibration) and against the inertia of the accessories and everything else attached to the crank. That is the only reason the damping is there. Given the energy created from combustion, the shocks and subsequent harmonics are enough to **** up the bearings if there is no mechanism to damp the millions of hits the bearings face over the life of an engine. And in our engine there is no mechanism for damping besides the rubber in our crank pulley.

I just don't understand why people keep using race cars as proof of reliability or comparisons for anything involving their every day car. Nobody asks those cars to reliably serve people everyday for years with minimum maintenance. Serious drag cars run 100 miles at the very most before being refurbished. If I had a dedicated crew who tore down my engine every couple of months with no inconvenience to me, I'd take some risks too. And despite all the maintenance they do on those race engines, what do you inevitably see when you watch a race? Engines blowing up! Engines seizing! Any number of engine problems! And these include the cars in the Speedvision Touring Car championship which are not much different than stock. ****, Grant Lockwood's Prelude blew up quite a few times! All that effort and service and they still blow up! I guess I wouldn't be so convinced about race engine reliability.
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Old 02-08-2002, 11:56 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Given all the uncertainty surrounding this topic, I took the conservative route and went with AEM.

There is too much debate on this board about the UR and I saw that as a risk I wasn't willing to take.

I have no idea if UR pulleys will screw your car up and I don't believe anyone on this board knows either.
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Old 02-09-2002, 07:57 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Hey, why do you guys run an intake with an air filter? I knew a guy that ran a rental car for several hundreds (or even thousands) of miles without an air filter. He didn't have any problems what so ever. So why not just yank that restrictive air filter??
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Old 02-09-2002, 08:03 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cuseC08
I would like all of you people to please go to this address.
http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/faq_pulleys.html

Why would you guys say all of this? don't you realise that UR would be put out of business if their pulleys ruined engines? Everything is right in here. all the stupid myths you guys are repeating over and over and over again. I hope after all this there is no more arguing about this subject. UR pulleys are perfectly safe.
Why do businesses that constantly rip customers off stay in business? Have you not heard of the scandals involving Sears Automotive, Just Brakes, Jiffy Lube, etc? All those places are still in business, and they have been sued multiple times.

If you think that a company is going to sell you a product and put in the description: "this product could damage your engine if installed for a significant amount of time." If you think for one moment that UR would tell you that the pulley is bad for the engine, you are more naive than I thought.

The reason why businesses like this stay in business is that the average consumer doesn't know any better and is willing to believe any BS line that is fed to them. Why do you think that Slick50 sold so well for so many years? Then it turns out that the PTFE gums up the engine, and eventually leads to failure.

You're not as smart as you think, and before you come on here spouting off at the mouth, I suggest you do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and educate yourself on how these items work, and how business in the real world works.

You claim that UR pulleys are "perfectly safe." What solid proof do you have to back up this claim?
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Old 02-09-2002, 08:10 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Re: I think half of you are full of sh*t

Quote:
Originally posted by cuseC08
After reading all this stuff about the crank pulley being bad, i got quite pissed cuz i bought these UR pulleys for like 300 bucks. So i wrote an email to unorthodox racing. here was their response.



Your source of information is mis-informed about our products. Please read
our FAQ section for the real facts about of products. If you have any
questions after that please feel free to e-mail us again. On a simplistic
note we have been on the market for 5 years now, our customers have
accumulated over 550 million miles using our pulleys and they only have
great things to say about them. If there were a problem we would have been
out of business 5 years ago, especially with the internet.

Thanks for your purchase and enjoy the pulleys,
URI


How can so many people buy these pulleys and supposedly not one single person has came back complaining? so where are all you people getting your information from? If your bearings are messed up and ur oil pump is shot... don't you think maybe the oilpump may have gone on it's own and brought other stuff with it? and another thing. half of you just read stuff on here and then try to say the same thing although you don't know what ur talking about. i bet like 5 people on this whole thread know what their actually talking about. Is there anyone who has actually had the crank bearings messed up on their car for sure? or is everyone just gonna tell me what will happen if i change my crank pulley?
Do you really think that UR would actually tell you if they have had people complain about their product???

My bearings were damaged, as was my oil pump. The oil pump was functioning perfectly, but there were vibration grooves worn into the housing and gear that were severe enough to warrant replacement of the pump. As for the bearings, #5 & #4 looked perfect, #3 not so good, #2 pretty bad, and #1 HORRIBLE. #1 had grooves in it so bad that it would easily catch your fingernail. I have pictures if anyone will host them.

So, what else do you want to know?
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Old 02-09-2002, 12:17 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by gLudeous
I say no. Get the Fisher crank damper (if you really want a light crank pulley), AEM pulleys and have $100 for some new CDs, a strut bar or something, or save the money and get really light wheels.
Well- no not at all- the person who saw the add can make up their mind if it is worth it to them. Mine didn't cause any damage to the car that I am aware of, but I just didn't want to take the risk. They sure did make a difference though in power. Honestly I miss them- but not the worry.

I never said that they won't ever harm your engine, and there is no proof that they will or won't- so I just offered the pulleys- kinda like a drug dealer...they OFFER drugs and people know what they are getting into when they use them(not that I feel like a drug dealer or anything...)

I hope no one that has them on now ever has a problem- running ludes are better than getting to say "I told you so". I still don't see why no one can make a lighter Hbalanced one though...
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Old 02-10-2002, 04:09 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Well as one of the 5, and someone who has studied mechanical vibrations at school and in the work place I can try to give you some background information as to why it is a bad idea to replace the crank pulley with a lighter improperly ballanced or solid pulley. And it is true, sarcastic as it was, what billy said about driving around with no air filter. Hey, look at the gains and it will run, but it sure isnt good for anything. And people should stop compairing daily drivers with race engines as it has been said already. If you are going to rebuild that often, who cares if it only last several thousand miles when that engine is being run for a couple hundred.......

Well, I can post up some of what I did before and some more to try and show that while our engines are designed by Honda Engineers, these crank pulleys are created and installed by people who do not understand some very important principles of engineering. The natural frequency (and its harmonics) are of greatest interest to the designer of a dynamic mechanical system as they define the frequencies at wich the system will resonate. First lets get some basics under our belts.

Elastic Deformation

Though it is common belief that large steel parts such as crankshafts are rigid and inflexible, this is not true. When a force acts on a crank it bends, flexes and twists just as a rubber band would. While this movement is often very small, it can have a significant impact on how an engine functions.

Natural Frequency

All objects have a natural frequency that they resonate (vibrate) at when struck with a hammer. An everyday example of this is a tuning fork. The sound that a particular fork makes is directly related to the frequency that it is vibrating at. This is its "natural frequency," that is dictated by the size, shape and material of the instrument. Just like a tuning fork, a crankshaft has a natural frequency that it vibrates at when struck. An important aspect of this principle is that when an object is exposed to a heavily amplified order of its own natural frequency, it will begin to resonate with increasing vigor until it vibrates itself to pieces (fatigue failure).

Fatigue Failure

Fatigue failure is when a material, metal in this case, breaks from repeated twisting or bending. A paper clip makes a great example. Take a paper clip and flex it back and forth 90° or so. After about 10 oscillations the paper clip will break of fatigue failure.

The explanation of the destructive nature of power pulleys begins with the two basic balance and vibration modes in an internal combustion engine. It is of great importance that these modes are understood as being separate and distinct.

The first mode is the vibration of the engine and its rigid components caused by the imbalance of the rotating and reciprocating parts. This is why we have counterweights on the crankshaft to offset the mass of the piston and rod as well as the reason for balancing the components in the engine.

The second mode is the vibration of the engine components due to their individual elastic deformations. These deformations are a result of the periodic combustion impulses that create torsional forces on the crankshaft and camshaft. These torques excite the shafts into sequential orders of vibration, and lateral oscillation. Engine vibration of this sort is counteracted by the harmonic damper.

Torsional Vibration (Natural Frequency)

Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position. However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft.

This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load.

Harmonic (sine wave) Torque Curves

Each time a cylinder fires, force is translated through the piston and the connecting rod to the crankshaft pin. This force is then applied tangentially to, and causes the rotation of the crankshaft.

The sequence of forces that the crankshaft is subjected to is commonly organized into variable tangential torque curves that in turn can be resolved into either a constant mean torque curve or an infinite number of sine wave torque curves. These curves, known as harmonics, follow orders that depend on the number of complete vibrations (cylinder pulses) per revolution. Accordingly, the tangential crankshaft torque is comprised of many harmonics of varying amplitudes and frequencies. This is where the name "harmonic damper" originates.

Critical RPM's

When the crankshaft is revolving at an RPM such that the torque frequency, or one of the harmonic sine wave frequencies coincides with the natural frequency of the shaft, resonance occurs. Thus, the crankshaft RPM at which this resonance occurs is known a critical speed. A modern automobile engine will commonly pass through multiple critical speeds over the range of its possible RPM's. These speeds are categorized into either major or minor critical RPM's.

Major and Minor Critical RPM’s

Major and minor critical RPM's are different due to the fact that some harmonics assist one another in producing large vibrations, whereas other harmonics cancel each other out. Hence, the important critical RPM’s have harmonics that build on one another to amplify the torsional motion of the crankshaft. These critical RPM’s are know as the "major criticals". Conversely, the "minor criticals" exist at RPM's that tend to cancel and damp the oscillations of the crankshaft.

If the RPM remains at or near one of the major criticals for any length of time, fatigue failure of the crankshaft is probable. Major critical RPM’s are dangerous, and either must be avoided or properly damped. Additionally, smaller but still serious problems can result from an undamped crankshaft. The oscillation of the crankshaft at a major critical speed will commonly sheer the front crank pulley and the flywheel from the crankshaft. There have been many reports of front pulley hub keys being sheered, flywheels coming loose, and clutch covers coming apart. These failures have often required crankshaft and/or gearbox replacement.

Harmonic Dampers

Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity. It is also important to note that while the ballancer shafts absorb some of the torsional impulses conveyed to the crankshaft, they are not harmonic dampers, and are only responsible for a small reduction in vibration.

One of the key components in determining the natural frequency of a moving system is mass, the other the stiffness, ie sping constant or dampening constant. The designer has a degree of control over resonance in that he can tailor the systems mass and stiffness to move its natural frequency away from any required operating frequencies. A common rule of thumb is to design the system to have a fundamental natural frequency at least 10 times the highest forcing frequency expected in service, thus keeping all operation well below the resonance point. This is often difficult to acheive in mechanical systems. One tries to acheive the largest ratio of natural frequency/operating frequency possible nevertheless, even if it is less than 10.

The equation for calculating the natural fequency is: (excuse the lack of symbols here and the wrote out formula)

natural frequency = the square root of the fraction stiffness over mass

At first it seems that it would be beneficial to have the system members to be both light (low mass) and stiff to get high values for the natural frequency driving it farther away from the operating frequency. Unfortunately, the lightest materials are seldom the stiffest. Aluminum is one-third the weight of steel but is also about a third as stiff. Titanium is about half the weight of steel but also about half as stiff.

Steel is used in the cranks for these reasons as well as many others. This means that the mass of this system is fixed and there is a need to keep the the natural frequency away from the operating frequency. Thus the harmonic dampener is put on the end of the crank system to help control the stiffness of this part of the system. The mass of this pulley is also important as it was designed to be incorporated into the entire stystems dampening in the harmonic dampener.

Wow, I cant believe I wrote that much. It is always good to blow the dust off the old books and look up some of this stuff... Hopefully I have put a little bit of info out there. Hopefully we can FAQ this one so that I dont get cramps in the fingers again.
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Old 02-10-2002, 10:26 PM   #53 (permalink)
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nice post
it would be cool if we could find somone to donate a lesser engine
like a sohc 1.5 that got swapped from a civic.. and run 2 of those hard for about 80k miles..one with the oem and one with a UR pulley then tear them down.. i know its an abitious project.. but hell.. to bad scc cant do one.. we should REALLY think about writing SCC as a group and ask them to use their resources to settle this debate along with the debate about what MAKES UP OUR DAMM CYL walls.. we all know it is FRM but is there any nikasil coatings? and the whole forged piston compatibility... these 2 subjects seem to lurk alot in the prelude msg boards.. it would be a great series "finding the truth about the h22"! hehe
i did notice though they scc used a fisher crank pulley on the their 300zx motor that they spent mucho time and bucks on.. and i know they use UR pulleys alot too.. anyone want to see this plan go into action? im sure if we all send in mutliple letters they will have to address the topic.. NICE THREAD GUYS.. btw i also look foward to the tear down of several of the motors of guys who are running UR crank pulleys and plan on doing internal upgrades.. cool..one more thing..it would be cool to salvage a h22 from a wrecked lude that was running a UR crank pulley than tear it down and inspect it.. later..
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Old 02-11-2002, 05:32 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Yeah, it would be nice if a magazine would run them side by side, as it would just convince more people. That was in Billy's email to UO, but they didnt want to do it, even with Billy flipping some of the bill...
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Old 02-11-2002, 09:28 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HoNdAHaXoR
nice post
it would be cool if we could find somone to donate a lesser engine
like a sohc 1.5 that got swapped from a civic.. and run 2 of those hard for about 80k miles..one with the oem and one with a UR pulley then tear them down
Yeah, and it would be nice if the manufacturer did this to prove their product. WTF kind of company doesn't actually do any testing that they can provide? If nothing else than for the marketing.

Why not? They don't need to. Fools will keep buying... hell, for as long as it would take to have a catastrophic failure... 90% "daily drivers" would sell the car before it happened- that's probably why no one really sees bad failures.
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Old 02-11-2002, 10:14 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcucci


Yeah, and it would be nice if the manufacturer did this to prove their product. WTF kind of company doesn't actually do any testing that they can provide? If nothing else than for the marketing.

Why not? They don't need to. Fools will keep buying... hell, for as long as it would take to have a catastrophic failure... 90% "daily drivers" would sell the car before it happened- that's probably why no one really sees bad failures.
Agreed, most have not seen failures. Most will have other things go wrong because they are draggin them all around, wrecked cars, sold cars, attribute to other mods, etc. It is a pure marketing company that does not take into account these basics in engineering design.
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Old 02-11-2002, 10:34 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Re: I think half of you are full of sh*t

Quote:
Originally posted by cuseC08
After reading all this stuff about the crank pulley being bad, i got quite pissed cuz i bought these UR pulleys for like 300 bucks.
It's obvious what your price is. Man, for 300 dollars can I buy your services? For just 3 bills you'll argue to the death, even when your only basis is: "companies wouldn't sell things that don't work." I realized right after you wrote that comment that you were mad that you didn't do research BEFORE buying them and installing them (pipewrench was it?). Sorry for the bad news bro, but like marcucci said: how about you being one of the test subjects. Stand behind your conviction. The fab-5 on this subject (as always) have the most convincing arguement. When something makes sense why fight it. I wouldn't trust most companies to produce an accurate harmonic damper anyways.
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