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Old 01-18-2004, 10:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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ATTS Removal

I thought I'd share my experience and document this for others. I'm not going to go into WHY the ATTS was removed, and if you are interested, I suggest you search. This question is asked all the time, a brief search will tell you all you need to know.

First, thanks to Ian Clendaniel (clendaniel) who proved this could be done and first documented it. Here is his original post:

buh-bye ATTS.

I think that what I have come up with is a slight improvement to with respect to strength. It might be harder for some people to make.

First, the basic problem is that the SH has mounting holes for the ATTS unit and removing it requires installation of the base intermediate shaft... which it has no provision for. Here is the base block:



Note the 3 holes in the upside-down "L" pattern.

Now the SH:



The circled hole was a "blank" boss that I drilled and tapped to add another mounting point for the plate. The problem with the hole patterns is multiple. First, the holes aren't in the right place. You need to "make" these holes by making a plate to cover the existing SH/ATTS holes, then drill that to accept the intermediate shaft. Second, the bosses on the SH are 1/4" closer to the block than the base (they need to be built out 1/4" for the shaft to line up correctly). This is handy since you can buy steel plate in 1/4" thickness. The last problem is that the upper-left mounting tab on the intermediate shaft interferes with one of the ATTS bolt holes... meaning, if you use that hole on one you can't use it on both.

To fix that problem help insure that the shaft doesn't move and is secure, you need to cut and relocate that tab on the intermediate shaft. Ian cut the ear off and welded it in place in the new location, having one bolt go through the shaft and plate and into the block. The other two go directly into the plate (but not the block). He then used the other hole in the SH block to hold the plate down. You can see his setup here:



And in the thread posted above...

I was doing this operation on an ITS racecar that is putting down in the ballpark of 200WHP and gobs of torque... with race rubber and an LSD and final drive (in the new base tranny). I wanted something a little more beefy. This was my solution:



I had to file down the "blank" boss (circled in the picture above) and drill and tap it, but it resulted in another mounting hole for the plate. On top of that, instead of relocating the cut tab on the intermediate shaft, I just welded on a piece of steel onto the side and drilled holes to line up with the two mounting points on the SH block... so two bolts go through the intermediate shaft and the adapter into the block. I think this provides a considerable amount of rigidity to the intermediate shaft and an additional safety margin.

For anyone that's interested, here's an Autocad .DWG of the plate:

http://www.marcuccimotorsports.com/j...pter_plate.dwg

and some pics of the plate and intermediate shaft work:









Note that instead of welding on nuts on the back of the adapter (to mount the shaft) like Ian did, I welded on a piece of steel flat and just tapped them both. I ground down the bottom of it (where it is shiny) to keep from interfering with the block. There is only I think about .3" of clearance between the plate and the block on the lower bolt hole, so you don't have much room to work with.

All said and done this was a LOT of work. I couldn't find anyone that had taken measurements, and the SH block was still in the car (making prototyping difficult). I came up with the dimensions by measuring the block and prototyping in Lexan.

The dimensions in the drawing are only approximate... I would recommend enlarging the holes some to allow for proper fit. If anyone wants to take more accurate measurements and provide them, I'll be glad to update the drawing.

Last edited by marcucci; 10-04-2006 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:17 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Very cool . . . quick question - does the base intermediate shaft fit into the SH tranny? IOW, does ATTS removal require a tranny swap?
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:47 AM   #3 (permalink)
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No- the base tranny MUST be used. The shaft/SH diff are incompatible. The SH diff has a coaxial output on the driver's side to provide both driver/passenger rotation control to the ATTS unit. AFAIK the diffs cannot be swapped between the two, though I haven't tried.
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Old 01-19-2004, 10:59 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Ah, I see - thanks for the response. I'd love to see an adapter plate like yours replicated & marketed, but there's probably not enough demand to warrant the effort.

Just curious, did you happen to weigh the ATTS unit when you pulled it off?
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Old 01-19-2004, 12:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I would gladly pay for an adapter plate, especially since I don't have the tools to do it myself and the local trans shops won't touch this job.
If you ever decide to make anymore... Please contact me!

Last edited by gju614; 01-19-2004 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 01-19-2004, 02:04 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: ATTS Removal

Sweet...good to see you got it in there. I thought about integrating another mounting point but decided against it as the bolts serve only to position the bearing against the block...the rotation of the shaft forces the bearing/plate assembly against the block so the bolts are not stressed. One thing to note is to keep an eye on the welds where the plate is welded to the cast bearing carrier...for those that are unaware cast iron can be a bear to weld correcly. Ideally the cast should be heated with a torch then welded in order to ensure a strong joint.

Quote:
Originally posted by marcucci
I was doing this operation on an ITS racecar that is putting down in the ballpark of 200WHP and gobs of torque... with race rubber and an LSD and final drive (in the new base tranny). I wanted something a little more beefy. This was my solution:
I definitely don't think you'll have a problem then...mine has >10K miles on the adapter setup with _many_ 1/4 mile runs on slicks and makes ~300whp/270lb/ft


--Ian
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Old 01-19-2004, 02:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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So in order to get rid off the ATTS you will need:

1. Base tranny
2. Half Shaft (From Base)
3. DriveShaft (From Base)
4. And the custom plate you showed

I was originally considering just getting rid of the SH block and tranny and buying the base but this is a definate alternative. I would then only have to get rid of the SH tranny.

One question, what problems did you have mounting the base tranny to the SH block? Was it a direct fit?
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Old 01-19-2004, 02:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoosterSH
So in order to get rid off the ATTS you will need:

1. Base tranny
2. Half Shaft (From Base)
3. DriveShaft (From Base)
4. And the custom plate you showed

I was originally considering just getting rid of the SH block and tranny and buying the base but this is a definate alternative. I would then only have to get rid of the SH tranny.

One question, what problems did you have mounting the base tranny to the SH block? Was it a direct fit?
You need the tranny, intermediate shaft, and the adapter plate. You can retain the SH axles and the tranny bolts to the engine with no mods.

--Ian
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Old 01-19-2004, 03:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Is there anything that can be done on the ECU end to get rid of the ATTS light? Or is it a pull-the-bulb-and-forget-about-it situation?
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Old 01-19-2004, 03:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Hmmm...so how did you handle the other aspects of the ATTS? As far as the coolant lines to the radiator, fuses, wiring and ECU? You should of just been able to plug the lines and disconnect the ECU and wiring/fuses, correct?
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Old 01-19-2004, 04:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Also, to what ft/lbs did you torque the bolts that go into the block?
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Old 01-19-2004, 06:40 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daemione
Is there anything that can be done on the ECU end to get rid of the ATTS light? Or is it a pull-the-bulb-and-forget-about-it situation?
You could probably reconfigure some of the jumpers on the ecu (0k resistors) to match a standard p5m.
Someone did that on pgmfi to make a SS ecu into a regular base ecu.
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Honda specs different axles from base to SH. I compared them and they semmed to be different in length (even accounting for the joint slop) though the attachment points all seemed the same.

Ian, I don't doubt yours isn't tough enough... I just wanted to be sure. I hadn't seen you post any trouble and was hoping you had none. As for the force, the rotation is about the axis of the shaft with the wheels resisting... which means the upper bolt will want to pull away while the lower one wants to push in. It's the launch and shifting I think you have to worry about, especially dragging.

I considered marketing the plate. I definitely can replicate the work. It's just a major PITA. If anyone is interested, PM me, and I will consider doing it.

The ATTS unit weighed about 37lbs on my bathroom scale. The Quaife was I think 5lbs heavier than the base diff. I figure it's roughly a 30lb tradeoff or close to 40 if you just remove it all and go base with OE diff.

I CAN say that with the final drive the car pulls like a mother****ing freight train. It feels like it has a SBC in it.
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Old 01-19-2004, 11:03 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoosterSH
Hmmm...so how did you handle the other aspects of the ATTS? As far as the coolant lines to the radiator, fuses, wiring and ECU? You should of just been able to plug the lines and disconnect the ECU and wiring/fuses, correct?
Just pull the ATTS ecu and either plug or loop the coolant lines on the radiator. The SH ecu doesn't seem to mind when there's no input from the ATTS box...I never threw a CEL when I had the OEM ecu in place prior to the AEM.

--Ian
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Old 01-19-2004, 11:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcucci
Ian, I don't doubt yours isn't tough enough... I just wanted to be sure. I hadn't seen you post any trouble and was hoping you had none. As for the force, the rotation is about the axis of the shaft with the wheels resisting... which means the upper bolt will want to pull away while the lower one wants to push in. It's the launch and shifting I think you have to worry about, especially dragging.
Heh...no problem. I wasn't trying to argue, just pointing out that mine has proven to be sufficient for continuous high-hp launches with the turbo prespooled on the 2-step. If I were doing it over I'd likely mix the two...I'd cut/weld the carrier like I did but extend and drill/tap the boss like on yours.

As far as the force...the carrier will see little to no rotational force about the axis of the shaft itself unless the bearing were to seize or have an inordinate amount of drag. I'd put money that the force in that direction could be easily measured in inch-pounds. The force I was referring to is the rotational force of the entire assembly about a straight line from the output of the tranny to the hub in which case the entire bearing carrier would be forced in towards the block.

--Ian
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:07 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcucci
The ATTS unit weighed about 37lbs on my bathroom scale. The Quaife was I think 5lbs heavier than the base diff. I figure it's roughly a 30lb tradeoff or close to 40 if you just remove it all and go base with OE diff.
Awesome, thanks . . . I wonder how much an OEM LSD-equipped tranny weighs compared to one w/ a Quaife. Not that anyone should quibble over a few pounds when it comes to a limited-slip . . .
Quote:
I CAN say that with the final drive the car pulls like a mother****ing freight train. It feels like it has a SBC in it.
What final drive are you using? The Prodrive unit?
Quote:
Originally posted by clendaniel
Just pull the ATTS ecu and either plug or loop the coolant lines on the radiator. The SH ecu doesn't seem to mind when there's no input from the ATTS box...I never threw a CEL when I had the OEM ecu in place prior to the AEM.
Were you able to do anything about the ATTS light?
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Old 01-20-2004, 12:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Houseman (custom). This is the exact same final drive:

Custom Final Drive Review

If you don't want an ATTS light you can just pull the bulb.
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Old 01-20-2004, 06:44 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daemione
Were you able to do anything about the ATTS light?
Without the ATTS ecu the light isn't lit...so nothing to worry about.

--Ian
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