Turbo ecu question - Honda Prelude Forum

hdelsol · 06-13-2009, 10:01 PM

Please excuse my noobness, I'm researching as much as possible.

I have a question about my current ecu setup. Its a 97 lude btw.
A chipped p28 tuned with neptune. The last owner told me it leans out around 6k i believe so I was thinking a apexi vafc to adjust the fuel around there? The tune is good for daily driving which is how I want it and I don't want to drive far and pay to have it retuned right now. Will this work?

Also I dont know much about ecu's and havent been able to find good info...any tips to point me in the right direction? such as harnessess and installation?

Also since it is already tuned for my setup i just get a chipped p28 pop it in and im good to go basically right? Since the p28 already has vtec then the neptune tunes it for the h22.

Thanks

madcatz · 06-13-2009, 11:17 PM

you already have the Chiped P28 installed
you NEED to get it tuned properly.

Are you boosted or are you NA

and your sig confuses me.....are you a base or a SH.
If your an SH was your block AND Transmission swapped for a Base H22A4 and a M2Y4 or the ATTS Unit with M2U4 Transmission with the SH H22A4

If so, did you or the previous owner disable the ATTS unit and remove it/leave it on and deal with the weight?

hdelsol · 06-14-2009, 06:47 AM

Sorry i wrote that pretty late last night.

It is an SH and NA right now. I'm turbocharging it soon and right now im trying to get everything straightened out beforehand. The p28 is not installed yet but it was previously installed running neptune on a turbo prelude before me running the exact same setup. With the neptune his prelude ran fine and im just wondering if the vafc will fix leaning out in higher rpms.

Its a mostly stock prelude SH and I will be disabling the atts when I go turbo but i will be leaving it in there.

Thanks

mdpc20653 · 06-14-2009, 02:30 PM

get it tuned. no engine is identical. tho one engine might have the same mods. it'll peform dif than another. be safe. get it tuned. BUT if you are going turbo. just stick with your stocky ecu until the day. no need to pay for a tune twice since the second will more beneficial. and that current tune will be erased anyways for the new tune.

madcatz · 06-14-2009, 03:55 PM

troof.

Thanks for the clarification.

I would seriously look into going with a Greedy Emanage to keep your ATTS, depending on boost....what are your target numbers you are looking to get from the build?

that in my honest opinion will let me help you more than anything.
Have you started your boost build/procurement of parts?

hdelsol · 06-14-2009, 06:58 PM

K will do i'll look into that.

I have everything for the kit or its being bought for sure in a week heres what i can remember cause i'm out of town right now.

garrett 60 trim intake side/ turbonetics exhaust housing
sfp manifold
tial i wanna say 40mm bov
tial 50mm wastegate.. still not sure dont remember
greddy profec b-spec2 boost controller
custom dp
griffen core/spearco endtanks intercooler
i believe 550cc rc injectors
boomslang harness with harness for vafc
and various other parts some i might have forgotten
and that neptune chip that has been tuned all i need is a chipped p28

my plans for now are 3psi daily and 5psi max i just want to be safe for now maybe up to 6 or 7.

So im not sure about the neptune and ecu stuff. I'd love to keep atts. Sorry if this is a dumb q but i havent gotten to researching it yet will i need a bigger fuel pump? is it neccesary?

Thanks

madcatz · 06-14-2009, 08:13 PM

tial doesnt make a 50mm Wastegate
38, 44....Synapse makes a 50mm

Walbro makes a 255lph in tank unit...you can fab up and use an aeromotive 800 lph if you so desire. but that will require a different sump setup since its an inline pump.

you probably wont need the wastegate as your turbo's internal wastegate will suffice for such small boost.

and if memory serves me correct Greddy is the only engine management that allows ATTS to be kept...I have heard that AEM EMS will do it, but havent gotten any proof

mdpc20653 · 06-15-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdelsol

K will do i'll look into that.

I have everything for the kit or its being bought for sure in a week heres what i can remember cause i'm out of town right now.

garrett 60 trim intake side/ turbonetics exhaust housing
sfp manifold
tial i wanna say 40mm bov
tial 50mm wastegate.. still not sure dont remember
greddy profec b-spec2 boost controller
custom dp
griffen core/spearco endtanks intercooler
i believe 550cc rc injectors
boomslang harness with harness for vafc
and various other parts some i might have forgotten
and that neptune chip that has been tuned all i need is a chipped p28

my plans for now are 3psi daily and 5psi max i just want to be safe for now maybe up to 6 or 7.

So im not sure about the neptune and ecu stuff. I'd love to keep atts. Sorry if this is a dumb q but i havent gotten to researching it yet will i need a bigger fuel pump? is it neccesary?

Thanks

toss that VAFC. thats what the neptune/hondata/crome/AEM etc or whatever you decide to use is for. all the VAFC is gonna do is temp you to fool with it. if your gonna do a daily and a simple tune. then set it and forget it. you really wanna shoot for your tune to be your first and last. cuz when you tune it one way and you start adding or taking away then you gotta retune. build it to your goal desire and tune. but if you got the cash to do tune after tune then by all means. 3psi?? and 5psi?? idk bout that you really wont notice a dif. just the "BOV" sound basically. not worth it. you get a good tune you can run bout 10. i ran 10psi for bout 3 years then i started to mess with it and boom....ringlands....my fault yes but im serious bout it now. im down bout 8g's now. but my goal is 700+ so. two each there own. once im done this im moving on to another project but still gonna keep the lude. thats my heart lol oh and get a new clutch too. theres more to it than just slapping a kit on. tho it is easier to say that

hdelsol · 06-16-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdpc20653

toss that VAFC. thats what the neptune/hondata/crome/AEM etc or whatever you decide to use is for. all the VAFC is gonna do is temp you to fool with it. if your gonna do a daily and a simple tune. then set it and forget it. you really wanna shoot for your tune to be your first and last. cuz when you tune it one way and you start adding or taking away then you gotta retune. build it to your goal desire and tune. but if you got the cash to do tune after tune then by all means. 3psi?? and 5psi?? idk bout that you really wont notice a dif. just the "BOV" sound basically. not worth it. you get a good tune you can run bout 10. i ran 10psi for bout 3 years then i started to mess with it and boom....ringlands....my fault yes but im serious bout it now. im down bout 8g's now. but my goal is 700+ so. two each there own. once im done this im moving on to another project but still gonna keep the lude. thats my heart lol oh and get a new clutch too. theres more to it than just slapping a kit on. tho it is easier to say that

What did you use to tune?

mdpc20653 · 06-17-2009, 03:14 PM

Hondata s100 at first. but now im going neptune. more capabilities for what im doing, race.
s100 better for basic stuff and basic bolt on kit turbo tuning. im selling it actually. yours the RTP? or just the chip?

hdelsol · 06-17-2009, 08:54 PM

just the chip that came with the turbonetics kit i believe. I want rtp but I don't have the money for it now. Is rtp supposed to be pretty easy to tune with? To make slight adjustments yourself?

mdpc20653 · 06-18-2009, 08:07 AM

the rtp allows user adjustments. which if you dont know what your doing then dont. just like the VAFC. thats why im going with the chip. once my build is done im done. lol

prepreludesh · 06-18-2009, 10:33 AM

I guess nobody else has asked this, but mdp, did you do research before you bought all of these turbo parts? I guess from how I read into your parts list, you're trying to build it off of a guy who you thought had a pretty proven setup.

But I don't think you've done enough planning to start doing this build, and from the sounds of it, you might not have enough money to do it right, which will be all thrown down the drain when it comes time to run it around town.

The first thing you need to do, since you are so deadset (it seems) on not getting a tune, is to get a wideband air/fuel ratio gauge. A reliable one like AEM's (not autometer!) will be able to tell you your A/F ratio if you're just going to hastily throw this stuff on your car and pray that it works. At least you'll be able to see what driving style creates the lean conditions that will blow up your engine, or what driving styles dump in so much fuel that it literally chokes it to the point of death with too much fuel. A wideband looks just like your stock O2 sensor and should go in the same location (before the cat.)

Now your idea of running a VAFC with a chipped P28 with Neptune is... to be nice about it... retarded. The VAFC is designed to fool the stock computer with a fake signal that the computer would normally read as "I need to add more fuel" or "I need to take out some fuel." You do this so that you can adjust in tiny incriments. The Neptune program does the same thing, but it doesn't have to interfere with the signals that your sensors are giving you, because you can adjust the final point at which the signals are read and then redistributed back out to your fuel injectors and distributor to adjust fuel maps and timing. That is why a "stand alone" (like Neptune) is sufficient enough.

The main drawback of using a "piggyback" (which is what a Greddy Emanage or VAFC is) is that some people will argue that you don't get the instant response of a stand alone, because the signals are having to go through a middleman, and not straight to the source. Also, there is nothing quite like the infinite adjustability of a stand-alone for power potential and drivability.

Now, since you said you have ATTS, you have a very important decision ahead of you, do you want to keep it or do you want the ability to make power? Because if you want to keep ATTS, you're going to have to go Piggyback (Greddy Emanage or VAFC) because ATTS relies on the stock ECU to send it signals to tell it how to work. The AEM EMS does not let you retain ATTS by the way. If you use a stand-alone ECU (like your Neptune P28) then you will lose the ability of ATTS, it simply won't function. This is the route I went and I can tell you that with some suspension setups, you won't miss ATTS becuase you can cut down on the natural oversteer of a FWD car just by stiffening up the rear end. The one basic downfall is now you are faced with a 40+lb weight behind your engine (the ATTS) that is good for nothing. And many have talked about removing it and swapping in an LSD on an SH block (because the SH block is different from the base block) and only two or three people that I know of have ever really done it.

Now as for your fuel injectors, I also have 550cc injectors. They are probably too big for the setup you want (3psi and 5psi max). They will drench the inside of your cylinder and create a loss in power if you put them in with a piggyback system (because piggybacks don't respond well with larger injectors at all). The only reason you should put these in is if you're dealing with the Neptune system.

One last thing I would think about if i were you... why not build the engine? I don't ever believe that a stock block (especially the H22) should be boosted without reinforcing it, and you shouldn't take it lightly either, even with your dreams of ridiculously low boost. I think you should look into this especially if you're paying to have all of this installed. Because you're just going to have to pay to get it unistalled later on when you fry it and then get a new one (or refurbish that one) and install it all over again, which could drain you of money.

If you look at what I went through with my build (the link in my signature block) then you will see one reoccuring trend as I spent thousands and thousands of dollars to get it right... do it right once, and you won't have to do it again. I've lost so much money over doing it again. So I advise you to not change your car until you are absolutely sure you have every piece needed and you have the means to build it efficiently and even plenty left in reserve for when the inevitable problems come along that require you to spend more. The cost of oil, coolant and sparkplugs alone nearly bankrupted me as I kept running into problems or had to tear it all down, and I've learned my lesson.

I think you need more research, and always challenge your builder, because builders get cocky and think they know everything and when they blow up your baby, guess who gets to pay to do it all over again? Answer: Not them.

madcatz · 06-18-2009, 11:40 AM

hey man did you mean Hdelsol or MDPC

mdpc20653 · 06-18-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prepreludesh

I guess nobody else has asked this, but mdp, did you do research before you bought all of these turbo parts? I guess from how I read into your parts list, you're trying to build it off of a guy who you thought had a pretty proven setup.

But I don't think you've done enough planning to start doing this build, and from the sounds of it, you might not have enough money to do it right, which will be all thrown down the drain when it comes time to run it around town.

The first thing you need to do, since you are so deadset (it seems) on not getting a tune, is to get a wideband air/fuel ratio gauge. A reliable one like AEM's (not autometer!) will be able to tell you your A/F ratio if you're just going to hastily throw this stuff on your car and pray that it works. At least you'll be able to see what driving style creates the lean conditions that will blow up your engine, or what driving styles dump in so much fuel that it literally chokes it to the point of death with too much fuel. A wideband looks just like your stock O2 sensor and should go in the same location (before the cat.)

Now your idea of running a VAFC with a chipped P28 with Neptune is... to be nice about it... retarded. The VAFC is designed to fool the stock computer with a fake signal that the computer would normally read as "I need to add more fuel" or "I need to take out some fuel." You do this so that you can adjust in tiny incriments. The Neptune program does the same thing, but it doesn't have to interfere with the signals that your sensors are giving you, because you can adjust the final point at which the signals are read and then redistributed back out to your fuel injectors and distributor to adjust fuel maps and timing. That is why a "stand alone" (like Neptune) is sufficient enough.

The main drawback of using a "piggyback" (which is what a Greddy Emanage or VAFC is) is that some people will argue that you don't get the instant response of a stand alone, because the signals are having to go through a middleman, and not straight to the source. Also, there is nothing quite like the infinite adjustability of a stand-alone for power potential and drivability.

Now, since you said you have ATTS, you have a very important decision ahead of you, do you want to keep it or do you want the ability to make power? Because if you want to keep ATTS, you're going to have to go Piggyback (Greddy Emanage or VAFC) because ATTS relies on the stock ECU to send it signals to tell it how to work. The AEM EMS does not let you retain ATTS by the way. If you use a stand-alone ECU (like your Neptune P28) then you will lose the ability of ATTS, it simply won't function. This is the route I went and I can tell you that with some suspension setups, you won't miss ATTS becuase you can cut down on the natural oversteer of a FWD car just by stiffening up the rear end. The one basic downfall is now you are faced with a 40+lb weight behind your engine (the ATTS) that is good for nothing. And many have talked about removing it and swapping in an LSD on an SH block (because the SH block is different from the base block) and only two or three people that I know of have ever really done it.

Now as for your fuel injectors, I also have 550cc injectors. They are probably too big for the setup you want (3psi and 5psi max). They will drench the inside of your cylinder and create a loss in power if you put them in with a piggyback system (because piggybacks don't respond well with larger injectors at all). The only reason you should put these in is if you're dealing with the Neptune system.

One last thing I would think about if i were you... why not build the engine? I don't ever believe that a stock block (especially the H22) should be boosted without reinforcing it, and you shouldn't take it lightly either, even with your dreams of ridiculously low boost. I think you should look into this especially if you're paying to have all of this installed. Because you're just going to have to pay to get it unistalled later on when you fry it and then get a new one (or refurbish that one) and install it all over again, which could drain you of money.

If you look at what I went through with my build (the link in my signature block) then you will see one reoccuring trend as I spent thousands and thousands of dollars to get it right... do it right once, and you won't have to do it again. I've lost so much money over doing it again. So I advise you to not change your car until you are absolutely sure you have every piece needed and you have the means to build it efficiently and even plenty left in reserve for when the inevitable problems come along that require you to spend more. The cost of oil, coolant and sparkplugs alone nearly bankrupted me as I kept running into problems or had to tear it all down, and I've learned my lesson.

I think you need more research, and always challenge your builder, because builders get cocky and think they know everything and when they blow up your baby, guess who gets to pay to do it all over again? Answer: Not them.

whoa whoa whoa. who are you talking to?? read the thread. "hdelsol" was the one asking the questions. not me. i said basically what you just posted but in leman terms. enough money???? speak for yourself. not everyone here "can dish out the money it takes to do something like this".....some can. ALL of my build items are already purchased in the last 3 weeks and in the works. only thing holding me up is the manifold which morgan called today and told me it'll be here tomorrow per UPS track#. im only tring to help the guy out. yes i have researched any and ALL information needed. before i go on ill let you RE-read the thread. everything in my "bout time" thread is bought and paid for. who's proven build are you talking about?? this is my own. if there is any similarities, that is purely coincidental.

edit: ill post up my myspace link when i get home and you can see the build process.

mdpc20653 · 06-18-2009, 03:05 PM

p.s. i ran 10psi for 3 years tuned on the s100 on a STOCK h22a4 putting down 273whp. it can be done. im going all out this go round.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdpc20653

Well guys and gals. the time came. "budget" boost, ~600 bucks for everything self pieced kit and free labor. not including the tuning (400), lasted me bout 3 years. only thing to go was the clutch towards the end before the ringlands went. had my fuin at 10 psi, got my money's worth i think. new build is in process.
check it out MySpace.com - www.myspace.com/62022081
add me. label po.com

ERL performance h22a4 fully built sleeved short block (Assembled) $3250
*rods, crank, ring, pistons, bearings, bored 89mm etc....
Mild head work
Borg Warner S362
Synapse Mani
Tial WG
Turbo xs BOV
complete ferrea valve train
stock cams
BDL fuel reg/rail
Walbro 255lph HP
Precision 1000cc peak and hold
Neptuned p72
3" DP/DT
mishimoto half rad
ARP studs
Balance shafts removed and capped by ERL
GREDDY timing belt
COMETIC head gasket
CC stage 5 clutch
Aasco 10lb FW
Axles
LSD
30x10x3 FMIC
etc.....a/c gone p/s gone
what you guys think?
numbers and pics to come
i got some on my myspace

hdelsol · 06-20-2009, 01:14 AM

thanks everyone for your help. prepreludesh you did mean me. My build isn't gonna start now but i am doing the parts gathering. I know i need to do way more research like no other and I have started and will continue so I can get everything perfect on my build... or you know.. close enough.

My goal of three to 5psi right now is low but I'm hoping that will be my daily driving psi. I started this thread to ask some about ecu's which is the main thing i have know clue about. I realize it is gonna take a lot to get me going but I'll manage. Thanks for all the info.

When i finally get to it I will be installing it myself. I am broke so this time around i'm going for what I can get by safely with. Which I know is not smart, but i'll learn. If something goes wrong with my engine i'll rebuild and replace as needed. Time and money.

As for now i'm hoping to get a start with my setup listed above, with the neptune. I will for sure be getting an afr gauge I already know that. once this is running at least decent i'll start up a new goal. As for tuning im not deadset on not tuning I'm just not wanting to spend money. If this tune doesn't work out I will tune.. it will just be a matter of time.

hdelsol · 06-20-2009, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdpc20653

the rtp allows user adjustments. which if you dont know what your doing then dont. just like the VAFC. thats why im going with the chip. once my build is done im done. lol

lol well goodluck with your build i'll have to check it out when I get the chance

prepreludesh · 06-20-2009, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madcatz

hey man did you mean Hdelsol or MDPC

Yeah, I did mean Hdelsol, not MDC, my bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdelsol

thanks everyone for your help. prepreludesh you did mean me. My build isn't gonna start now but i am doing the parts gathering. I know i need to do way more research like no other and I have started and will continue so I can get everything perfect on my build... or you know.. close enough.

My goal of three to 5psi right now is low but I'm hoping that will be my daily driving psi. I started this thread to ask some about ecu's which is the main thing i have know clue about. I realize it is gonna take a lot to get me going but I'll manage. Thanks for all the info.

When i finally get to it I will be installing it myself. I am broke so this time around i'm going for what I can get by safely with. Which I know is not smart, but i'll learn. If something goes wrong with my engine i'll rebuild and replace as needed. Time and money.

As for now i'm hoping to get a start with my setup listed above, with the neptune. I will for sure be getting an afr gauge I already know that. once this is running at least decent i'll start up a new goal. As for tuning im not deadset on not tuning I'm just not wanting to spend money. If this tune doesn't work out I will tune.. it will just be a matter of time.

What?!

mdpc20653 · 06-21-2009, 10:22 AM

no worries.