Since day one of my JRSC install, I have had this problem with my low end:
The torque curve should be flat in the low end, but as you can see there is some sort of problem. This can be felt during driving. The engine makes a lot of noise, but doesn't seem to want to go until 5k rpm.
Then PreludeSH157 posted his dyno, which shows he has the same problem:
We have almost entirely different setups. He uses the stock JR management, I use the PMS. That ruled fuel management. We have different exhaust systems. He was pulling timing with his JR BTC, while I was running stock timing during my dyno (oops), so that ruled out ignition tune. Both are a/f curves though the problem rpm range were about 12.5:1, ruling out fuel tune. We both have the Hondata IM gasket (he has a custom made one, not from Hondata), so I thought maybe EGR blockage was causing the trouble. Mine is blocked. Turns out his had the hole for the EGR port. We have one piece of equipment in common: the J&S UltraSafeGuard.
I bypassed my ignition wire from the J&S, giving the ignition system a direct signal from the ecu (sans PMS, of course), and took the car for a drive. The problem seems to have gone away. The engine seems to rev very freely through 3k-5k rpm now, and seems much stronger. I stress the word seems because I think I might be experiencing the placebo affect: I want to find the problem.
Not sure exactly what the root problem is. Perhaps I don't have a decent ground for the J&S (I'm certain the ground is fine), or perhaps it is poorly designed, causing noise on the ignition wire. I'm not an electrician, so it's difficult to say.
Only way to know for sure now is to hit a dyno. If it does turn out to be the problem, I may remove the J&S and dyno tune the car conservatively.
__________________
Last edited by sharkcohen : 04-10-2004 at 05:45 PM.
I do have the J&S and JR fuel/timing setup on my OBD2 H22A1, but I'll only be able to post the dyno sheet tomorrow...
But it does not have that low end thing at all. I'm right on target between 2000-6000RPM when compared to the JR 234.5 peak HP dyno they advertised for the lude.
(You'll see that my dyno shows a high end lost tough... I found out the longer belt wasn't tight at all (3-4psi from 6000RPM - Redline) and was madly slipping and I was also running the stock header at that time. So the peak HP is at 6000RPM...)
__________________
Everyone should see Fahrenheit 9/11... no mather what. 1996 BB1, 6 psi JRSC, J&S safeguard, Hondata S200, RC 550, Kami header, 2.5'' Brullen exhaust, Quaife diff., lightweigth 16'' wheel wraped w/ 215/45-16 Azenis Sport tires
If you are running the J&S with no issues, and it turns out that the J&S is causing my problem, then it is probably because of either a poorly chosen ground or a defective unit. Looking forward to seeing your dyno.
I think I grounded everything on the ground bolt behind the kickpanel plastic on the passenger side... BB1SRV, do you have a picture of your J&S, the side with all the adjustments? I'm sure they "improve" the setup of the J&S as the years go on by, I'm not sure which on y'all have.. but I believe I have the old version 2 (6 DIP switches) "Ultra-Safeguard"
For your info, my JR EMS is grounded to one of the ECU monting bolt (per JR instructions if I remember correctly). I cut the cigarette lighter 12V supply and ground wires and I'm using those for the J&S, my J&S audible alarm and my APEX'i a/f ratio meter (auto meter). My JR EMS is also using this 12V power supply.
Deep switches are as follow, 1-up, 2-up, 3-up, 4-up, 5 down.
Only switches #1 (up=20deg, down=10deg, max) & #2 (up=retard all, down=retard individual) can be set up or down. Since I want maximum protection and don't care about loosing power (not racing), both are up.
Switches 3, 4 and 5 must be as mentionned (for hondas) per J&S instructions.
__________________
Everyone should see Fahrenheit 9/11... no mather what. 1996 BB1, 6 psi JRSC, J&S safeguard, Hondata S200, RC 550, Kami header, 2.5'' Brullen exhaust, Quaife diff., lightweigth 16'' wheel wraped w/ 215/45-16 Azenis Sport tires
I have a different version of the unit, and the instructions for the switches were different. It also has 6 switches, not 5. I set mine to retard individual. You make a good point about that though, it isn't a racecar. Maybe I should be running it as retard all.
Just took it for a spin again with the J&S bypassed. I'm still convinced that it is revving much smoother in the "problem" range. Now I need to figure out what is causing the trouble.
Damn, without the J&S protection, I'm afraid to boost
__________________
Last edited by sharkcohen : 04-12-2004 at 06:35 PM.
Dave, here is my dyno as discussed. Remember not to take into consideration the portion AFTER 6000RPM since the longer belt was slipping and the boost gauge was dropping considerably... It is also with a stock header, test pipe and 2.25'' DC Catback. I'm still waiting for my kami... but at least I will be able to see if I will loose HP at low/medium RPM with it. Also the a/f isn't tune at all as it is not rich enough.
BTW, do you have the same J&S unit than PreludeSH157?
__________________
Everyone should see Fahrenheit 9/11... no mather what. 1996 BB1, 6 psi JRSC, J&S safeguard, Hondata S200, RC 550, Kami header, 2.5'' Brullen exhaust, Quaife diff., lightweigth 16'' wheel wraped w/ 215/45-16 Azenis Sport tires
Yes, I believe Chris and I have the same version of the J&S. I emailed J&S last night and explained the problem, hopefully John will respond with some insight.
That would be cool if J&S were to replace our units with new ones! Dave, when you say it has a dip in the torque, what do you feel, hesitation?? How does the torque dip, but not the HP? Also, BB1SRV, do you have a dyno plot of TORQUE?
Yes, it feels like a bad hesitation. The engine makes a bunch of noise but the car doesn't go. Once it hits 5k rpm, the power output feels right, just as it looks in my dyno. You can see in the dynos that the dip in the torque is indeed affecting the horsepower output in the same rpm range. Compare the look of the hp curve to BB1SRV's. I don't need to see his torque curve to know it is fine.
Originally posted by sharkcohen Yes, it feels like a bad hesitation. The engine makes a bunch of noise but the car doesn't go. Once it hits 5k rpm, the power output feels right, just as it looks in my dyno.
Dave, you just won't believe this one... This ain't a joke...
My J&S unit died today. Well not completely, but the car is now acting EXACTLY the way you mentioned it above. My J&S is almost new since I have less than 500 miles with it including apprx 100 boosted miles only.
It happened today. Many weird things happened within a very short period of time before I noticed that I had lost A LOT of HP below 5000RPM. First I got a detonation signal while running a conservative retard and 94 octane gas.... then the engine had few drastic hesitations... then the oem RPM gauge was bouncing between 0 RPM and 3000 RPM like crazy, just like if the ignition pulse signal was short-circuit. Right after this, the car wasn't pulling at all at WOT (I still had full boost).
So I stopped, unscrewed the ignition wires going to the J&S and by-passed the J&S. Suprise the car is going well! So I decided to only tap this ignition wire into the channel 1 'INPUT' in order to be able to at least see the presence or not of detonation (to maintain the J&S in operation and reading the knock sensor). Guess what ? I was unable to start the car. The channel 1 Input is now grounded !! Something failed in this unit and is making it to act strangly. The ignition pulse signals aren't going trough it as normal and I think the lost of HP is a consequence of an abnormal ignition timing ouput from the J&S.
I am very surprised and I feel disapointed. The unit was working so fine (for a short periode of time). VERY strange... I'll call John next week and will send the unit to him for check/repair. Did you get a response from him ?
__________________
Everyone should see Fahrenheit 9/11... no mather what. 1996 BB1, 6 psi JRSC, J&S safeguard, Hondata S200, RC 550, Kami header, 2.5'' Brullen exhaust, Quaife diff., lightweigth 16'' wheel wraped w/ 215/45-16 Azenis Sport tires
Wow dude, that suxors. I haven't heard back from J&S yet. If they don't email me back I am going to give them a call, too. My J&S is still bypassed at this time.
Had an extended freeway drive today, so I decided to hook the J&S back up just to test things out. I'm convinced that it's running like crap with the J&S. The difference is night and day. I don't understand why. What concerns me is that the J&S pulled timing for knock in the midrange once or twice during the drive. I bypassed the J&S when I got home, but now I'm scared to boost on it because I'm afraid it is detonating but I'm not hearing it. This is very frustrating.
I got my safeguard checked by john yesterday. Apparently everything is normal and the unit work perfectly on any setting.
For sure the problem only occurs at WOT. And problem only occurs with the safeguard working.
The only explanation John had is that the safeguard might be incompatible with the JR BTM. I really don't understand this, but I just hope he's right. Do we all have the JR BTM ??
I'm now going with Hondata S200. Will see if the problem persists or not...
__________________
Everyone should see Fahrenheit 9/11... no mather what. 1996 BB1, 6 psi JRSC, J&S safeguard, Hondata S200, RC 550, Kami header, 2.5'' Brullen exhaust, Quaife diff., lightweigth 16'' wheel wraped w/ 215/45-16 Azenis Sport tires
AutoForums.com is the premier network of enthusiast-owned
enthusiast-operated automotive communities.
We operate more than 100 automotive forums where our users consult peers for shopping information and advice, and share
experiences and opinions as a community.
Linear Mode
