Lysholm Supercharger Discussion - Honda Prelude Forum

ZDVS1 · 09-05-2002, 06:54 AM

This discussion is a continuation of a tangent from another thread. The start can be found here: Serious Engine Build Help

quote:
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Originally posted by Artifex
I agree with you there. However, you should know that JR is not the only choice when choosing blowers. You certainly can go the custom route. In fact, custom would be much much better than JR, because you could use a Lysholm supercharger instead of a Roots, and build yourself an air/water intercooler to go with it .

quote:
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Originally posted by ZDVS1
Artifex: do you have any info on this aproach? I know Lysholm chargers are better because they are actually compressors instead of just blowers. I would like to do this as I'm aiming for 350fwhp with a SC setup. My plan this far has been to retrofit an ENDYN blower to a JR jackshaft setup. However I would prefer a Lysholm charger.
Any info would be greatly appreciated...

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Originally posted by Artifex
Ah good. I was wondering when someone would ask about using a Lysholm. You need to be our poster child, just so we can get past all those people who think Eaton is the only SC manufacturer

.

Based on my research, there are two major manufacturers of Lysholm superchargers. One is made in the USA, the other is made in Sweden.

The Swedish company was really the first to mass produce these superchargers. The company is Opcon Autorotor AB , and they have no useful information on their website at all. The only tech info I have ever seen on their SCs are at the Kenne-Bell website.

If you want a Lysholm, the only practical choice is to get one from Whipple (the American company). They actually have specs and prices posted on their site (plus the shipping would be a lot better

). Whipple is really big into the domestic scene, and they really don't know sh*t about imports (I know because I asked them questions). The only option there is to know your shizzle before you place that order.

As I always seem to do in this forum, I need to stop and emphasize something important : If you want real power (and 350 whp qualifies), you need to get yo' ass a copy of Supercharged. Corky has a good writeup of Lysholm SCs in chapter 7, including installation reccomendations. To hold you over, someone has scanned a good article on blowers here.

That being said, Lysholm SCs are the way to go. They have more potential than turbos, but the biggest drawback is trying to mount a frickin intercooler with one. The only real way to do it I know of is to use a water/air unit and sandwich it between the blower and the engine block. Basically the mythical Endyn blower style (except it actually exists

). There was a dude on the FI Integra forum who did this, but it was posted like back in March, and I don't have a link to it.

Anyway, I don't know that Whipple has the same bolt patterns as the Eaton. If I were you, I would do this right by creating a custom intake manifold/intercooler. Basically the IC is the manifold. Blower on one side, engine on the other. The other problem to figure out is how to mount the blower so you can drive it with a belt. Maybe the JR jackshaft is the answer for this, I don't know.

Just some tidbits for the uneducated :

Lysholm SCs have upwards of 90% volumetric efficiency (fits in small spaces).
Lysholm SCs have upwards of 80% adiabatic efficiency (low exit charge temps).
Lysholm SCs can support 2+ bar all day long
Lysholm SCs have insane boost rates (think half max boost at 2k RPMs)

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Originally posted by kysmith
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ult...&f=110&t=10452

http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ult...&f=110&t=10635

Here are the links I could find on that air/water intercooler on a JRSC kit. (wow I spend too much time surfing the forums, I don't even own an integra!!!!!) The origional one dosen't seem to be up any longer. I think the guy is still trying to make them to sell if he can get it working well. If someone makes a intercooler kit for the jrsc kit I'll be the first one to buy it, (hint hint shops out there with this capability).

I'm loving this post

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Originally posted by ZDVS1
I had done some research on Autorotor before, I know they have a kit out for the Civic already(saw it on http://www.rimmersuperchargers.com which doesn't seem to be working now). I e-mailed an enquiry a long time ago about a prelude application and got no reply. I think This is the rout I'm going to take. Here are autorotor specs I found http://www.kenne-bell.com/blower_specs.asp
As for the intercooler, that's a definite either way. If I use JR's mountings with endyn roots blower, I'm going to mount a cooling membrane in the adapter plate, but I'd rather a custom manifold/IC with a Lysholm blower. I'm going to be building a spare motor, so fabrication shouldn't be that difficult. I was actually thinking of a mounting system similar to the Sunfire(I think) setup that has recently been released. This would allow for an IC and a log style imtake manifold. I saw it in a magazine.. the body of the blower set where the intake for our cars is usually and used a long drive rod across the top of the headers and was turned with a pulley located about where the power steering pump is now. Then the plumming went from there.
I think there's a ton of good info on this thread, and the links within. We should make this a compilation oF Lysholm Info and have it FAQ'd.
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If anyone has information pertaining to this topic, please feel free to contribute. Even if it's only a link to information.

-Scott

ZDVS1 · 09-05-2002, 07:23 AM

Here's a great FAQ on Whipple's site. A lot of good info and explainations of why Lysholm Chargers are better than Roots Blowers.
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/faq.html

DirtyLude · 09-05-2002, 08:06 AM

There was a custom 5th Gen whipple installation. He had the blower mounted on the front of the engine, opposite of the JR approach. He had a webpage with pictures and everything. That was over a year ago, but from what I heard, he had nothing but problems. Mostly with engine management. I think he was in Colorado somewhere.

Anyway. Any supercharger installation for our Honda's, you need to take into account that our engine spins backwards and you'll need an appropriate supercharger.

If someone wants to do it just to see if it can be done, it would be interesting, but practically building a totaly custom one off supercharger wouldn't be all that cost affected and would be incredibly time intensive.

ZDVS1 · 09-05-2002, 09:16 AM

Wouldn't making the SC spin to match our motor be nothing more than driving the other lobe of the blower? Therefore when ordering from Whipple, or whatever manufacturer, couldn't you specify that and have them send the appropriate nose?

About engine management, I would assume a standalone EMS is an implied requirement. I personally plan to use the AEM system, unless something better comes along. It'll be quite a while before this comes to fruition. Of course it doesn't matter what system you use if it's not tuned properly and/or the fueling/ignition system can't support it.

And since I'll be working on a spare motor, I'm not really worried about down time. Besides, I still have 2 years of my warranty

But I do hope to have it ready to drop in sometime before that.

Artifex · 09-05-2002, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DirtyLude
There was a custom 5th Gen whipple installation. He had the blower mounted on the front of the engine, opposite of the JR approach. He had a webpage with pictures and everything. That was over a year ago, but from what I heard, he had nothing but problems. Mostly with engine management. I think he was in Colorado somewhere.

Are you thinking of that guy who put a Toyota supercharger on his Lude? It was something like a GGZE-blah-blah-blah. The Toyota guy was not a US resident (he was in New Zealand or something) and had easy access to these blowers. Damndest thing I ever saw. He put this sucker on the front of his engine (like you are talking about), and routed the exit charge over the engine and back into the throttle body. That particular blower was even reversible, so you could spin it in any direction and it would still work

.

Back to your reference : I never saw anything about a Lysholm install for the Lude. As far as engine management goes, boost is boost. Either a Hondata or an AEM will work, regardless of what your are boosting with. So I think that in Scott's case, that is a non-issue. Fabrication and fitment are the real problems here.

Quote:

Originally posted by ZDVS1
Wouldn't making the SC spin to match our motor be nothing more than driving the other lobe of the blower? Therefore when ordering from Whipple, or whatever manufacturer, couldn't you specify that and have them send the appropriate nose?

Now that is a killer idea. Never thought of that one. If that is true, then the reverse spin thing isn't really an issue

Quote:

And since I'll be working on a spare motor, I'm not really worried about down time. Besides, I still have 2 years of my warranty But I do hope to have it ready to drop in sometime before that.

This is so cool. Scott, I want to help you design this thing. You are basically going to do what I wanted to do (but can't because I'm heading back to grad school full time next year). I can live out my little dream vicariously through your build up (how pathetic is that)

. If you want, I will be happy to consult with you as much as you want for this project. I will sit down in a day or two and sketch out some ideas I had for this puppy, and post them in this thread.

ZDVS1 · 09-05-2002, 12:51 PM

Cool, I look forward to your response. Did anyone else see that blower install it the magazine. It was just last month's issue, though I don't remember what zine it was... There's one kinda like it on P.62 of the new aug/sept. issue of honda tuning.

DirtyLude · 09-05-2002, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artifex
[b]
Are you thinking of that guy who put a Toyota supercharger on his Lude? It was something like a GGZE-blah-blah-blah. The Toyota guy was not a US resident (he was in New Zealand or something) and had easy access to these blowers.

No, he was definitely in the States. I'm pretty sure it was Boulder for some reason. I talked to him a bit and it was really the shop he was dealing with that did all the design and fabrication he didn't really have a good idea as to the techical details of his setup.

Quote:

Back to your reference : I never saw anything about a Lysholm install for the Lude. As far as engine management goes, boost is boost. Either a Hondata or an AEM will work, regardless of what your are boosting with. So I think that in Scott's case, that is a non-issue. Fabrication and fitment are the real problems here.

I think everyone here understands that perfectly well. I wasn't mentioning it as anything to look out for I was just talking about his specific setup.

I remember the guy from LudeSpeed was trying to make a kit for the 3rd Gen with the blower mounted on the intake manifold, JRSC style. I have no idea what type of blower he was trying to use and he eventually gave up on the prototype. He sent out the mass e-mail about 2 years ago looking for 5th Gens to prototype on. I saved the pictures he took of the prototype somewhere. I'll have a look for them, but I think they're on my old harddrive.

ZDVS1 · 09-05-2002, 07:30 PM

Funny, LudeSpeed is about 30 minutes from me. I've gone and talked to him. If you could find those pics, it would be great..

Artifex · 09-05-2002, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DirtyLude
No, he was definitely in the States. I'm pretty sure it was Boulder for some reason. I talked to him a bit and it was really the shop he was dealing with that did all the design and fabrication he didn't really have a good idea as to the techical details of his setup.
I think everyone here understands that perfectly well. I wasn't mentioning it as anything to look out for I was just talking about his specific setup.

I don't know whether we are thinking of the same guy. I didn't think that the Toyota SC was a Lysholm. It did look really ghetto rigged though

.

Quote:

I remember the guy from LudeSpeed was trying to make a kit for the 3rd Gen with the blower mounted on the intake manifold, JRSC style. I have no idea what type of blower he was trying to use and he eventually gave up on the prototype. He sent out the mass e-mail about 2 years ago looking for 5th Gens to prototype on. I saved the pictures he took of the prototype somewhere. I'll have a look for them, but I think they're on my old harddrive.

That would be sweet. I definitely would like to see that.

Okay Scott, here's my first braindump :

You have specified 350 whp. Is this a "soft" target, or do you want to shoot for more? Is this for street driving, or drag racing? Do you auto-x also?

Your profile says you have an '01 base MT. (Monty Burns voice: )Exxxxxxxellent.

The first choice is obvious : front of the engine or back? This is your choice (hell, it's your engine

), but I think that the back is easier. Attatching a belt will be easier from the front, but intake plumbing will be a b*tch. The back makes plumbing easier, but the drive belt is going to be a trick. When I last looked in the engine bay, there was no room to extend a pulley behind the back of the block to be flush with the accessory pulleys on the side. I think this is why JR uses that jackshaft assembly, to kind of get around this space crunch.

One more note on this. Corky Bell says that Lysholm blowers are loud. I have never heard one myself, so I can't say how much of an issue it might be. If the blower is mounted on the back of the block, that puts it a lot closer to the cabin, and it will sound much louder (pending some acoustical trick to counter that). You might think about whether that noise is important.

As far as space behind the block goes, I think there will be enough if the entire intake assembly is removed. This is somewhat dependent on the size of the blower you need, but the good news is that even the biggest one in this case is smaller than the Eaton M62 (a good VE sure does come in handy eh?

).

Do you have a machine shop locally that can fabricate aluminum or steel? This is important to get the custom parts (duh).

Is this going to be a maximum-effort design? Do you think you will have the funds to see this through?

I will post sometime again maybe tomorrow or next week, I have a lot of family coming into town this weekend, and I got to clean the apartment and make sure my sh*t is in gear

.

geramy · 09-05-2002, 07:37 PM

I remember that email, I had just got my prelude and was on HP.com for like a week when I got it...

In high school we put a SC from a city bus on my friends pickup truck...so with the right fabrication anything can be done...

ZDVS1 · 09-05-2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artifex

You have specified 350 whp. Is this a "soft" target, or do you want to shoot for more? Is this for street driving, or drag racing? Do you auto-x also?

Soft target, or more of a hard deck, would like more, but I think this is a reasonable goal for my application, which is primarely street driving. Though more of a weekend recreational ride. One of my main points is reliability and drivability. I love to drive and don't want to go soo extreme that the car looses it's fun. That's why I got the Lude. I do auto-x sometimes, and would like to quiet some ricers on the strip every once in a while. But that's not a priority.

Quote:

Your profile says you have an '01 base MT. (Monty Burns voice: )Exxxxxxxellent.

Yes, Yes it is... I did a lot of research before getting it. I knew I had plans for this is the long run so I bought to suit. Thought about ATTS briefly, but found it was a waste with my plans. And I would never own an auto sports car. No offence intended to anyone. Actually I thought about the SS too, kinda manual, untill I found out about the delay in the manual shift mode. But that's off topic.

Quote:

The first choice is obvious : front of the engine or back? This is your choice (hell, it's your engine ), but I think that the back is easier. Attatching a belt will be easier from the front, but intake plumbing will be a b*tch. The back makes plumbing easier, but the drive belt is going to be a trick. When I last looked in the engine bay, there was no room to extend a pulley behind the back of the block to be flush with the accessory pulleys on the side. I think this is why JR uses that jackshaft assembly, to kind of get around this space crunch.

This is one choice I'm keeping my options open. I'm looking for the most effecient way. I'm not dead set on either, as both have bennefits and draw backs. I'm thinking the front mount will give me the most versatility, and ease of tuning. The jackshaft causes issues accessing cam gears for tuning. Besides, it's kinda a "ghetto rigged" setup in my oppinion. More belts and movable parts make more alighnment issues. Aside from that, I would think that assembly enhances the parasitic drag on the motor.

Quote:

One more note on this. Corky Bell says that Lysholm blowers are loud. I have never heard one myself, so I can't say how much of an issue it might be. If the blower is mounted on the back of the block, that puts it a lot closer to the cabin, and it will sound much louder (pending some acoustical trick to counter that). You might think about whether that noise is important.

Well, noise isn't a big factor, as long as it's a "slipping belt" not a pissed-off weed-eater. Besides, Whipple says this:
"Is the Whipple Charger noisy?

No, the Whipple Charger is the quietest supercharger in the industry. There is only a slight whisper at high rpm."

From their FAQ I posted a link to earlier. Though I haven't herd one specifically, I believe top fuel dragsters use these type of chargers and I have never noticed the blower noise standing out.

Quote:

As far as space behind the block goes, I think there will be enough if the entire intake assembly is removed. This is somewhat dependent on the size of the blower you need, but the good news is that even the biggest one in this case is smaller than the Eaton M62 (a good VE sure does come in handy eh? ).

Yes, Effeciency is key, in any case. especially performance. I'm kinda expecting to loose the whole intake assembly, maybe retain the lower runners, at most.

Quote:

Do you have a machine shop locally that can fabricate aluminum or steel? This is important to get the custom parts (duh).

This may seem like a pleasant coincidance, but if I play my cards right, I may have 3.. I have connections with a photo-optics/laser company that makes their own parts inhouse, I'm working with Disney on the FIRST competitions, and I have a professor that has machining equipment. I may be able to get access.

Quote:

Is this going to be a maximum-effort design? Do you think you will have the funds to see this through?

Not sure what you mean by max-effort design, but I like to do things once, and do them right the first time. I hate having to redo things. If by max-effort you mean no short-cuts, then yes. This will be a fully built motor, ground up. I'm even thinking about using a F20 crank to correct the R/S ratio.
About funds, I'm pretty good with money when I have my mind set on something. I only have 7500 left on my car, and this aint mom&pop racing either. Besides, no one said this was going to be a quick endeavour, I have time to save and research.

Thanks everyone for your input, keep it coming...

Artifex · 09-08-2002, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZDVS1 Soft target, or more of a hard deck, would like more, but I think this is a reasonable goal for my application, which is primarely street driving.

Alrighty. See calculations below.

Quote:

This is one choice I'm keeping my options open. I'm looking for the most effecient way. I'm not dead set on either, as both have bennefits and draw backs. I'm thinking the front mount will give me the most versatility, and ease of tuning. The jackshaft causes issues accessing cam gears for tuning. Besides, it's kinda a "ghetto rigged" setup in my oppinion. More belts and movable parts make more alighnment issues. Aside from that, I would think that assembly enhances the parasitic drag on the motor.

As far as mounting location, I would say that that is one decision you have to make first (and that means early). Location determines a lot of other stuff, primarily the IC (which is like 8/10 of this effort IMHO anyways). As far as the JR jackshaft, I totally agree with you. It is just an elaborate hack, which introduces more moving parts, more points of failure, and greater belt and pulley losses.

Quote:

Well, noise isn't a big factor, as long as it's a "slipping belt" not a pissed-off weed-eater. Besides, Whipple says this:
"Is the Whipple Charger noisy?

No, the Whipple Charger is the quietest supercharger in the industry. There is only a slight whisper at high rpm."

From their FAQ I posted a link to earlier. Though I haven't herd one specifically, I believe top fuel dragsters use these type of chargers and I have never noticed the blower noise standing out.

Well, I'll be damned if you could hear anything at all next to a top fuel dragster

.

On this subject I am inclined to believe Corky. Here is what he has to say (quoting directly from his book):

"The twin-screw creates a noise due both to being a fixed-displacement supercharger and having an internal compression ratio. Like the Roots, it creates a noise because it discharges in amount defined by its clearnce volume as each volume passes through the discharge port. Unlike the Roots, it adds a compression-release 'pop' when the air is released into the intake manifold, because of the internal compression ratio. A three-lobe twin-screw will make three pops per revolution and is often running about twice engine speed. Therefore its frequency is fairly high, and the tone is a singing sound.
At low speed boost, asy 8 psi or less, this is not a problem. At 10+ psi it becomes piercing, and some percautions may need to be taken, similar to those taken on the exhaust side of an engine."

I am inclined to believe Corky on this. There are a few things that can be done, but you may want to worry about that once this baby actually starts working

.

Quote:

This may seem like a pleasant coincidance, but if I play my cards right, I may have 3.. I have connections with a photo-optics/laser company that makes their own parts inhouse, I'm working with Disney on the FIRST competitions, and I have a professor that has machining equipment. I may be able to get access.

That kicks ass. No worries then.

Okay. Here is the first in a series of posts on is a suitable blower setup for the H22. This is all pretty much straight out of Corky's book, so follow along if you like

:

Step 1: Determine the boost pressure.
Boost pressure is a function of target HP. The stock driveline is has about a 15% loss (160 WHP, 200 BHP). In order to produce 350 WHP, that is roughly 410-420 BHP.

Pressure Ratio = 420 HP / 200 HP

Page Ranking = 2.1
A Page Ranking of 2.1 is about 16.17 psi.

So : In order to hit 350 WHP on an H22, you have to be running 16+ psi.

Step 2: Re-check the pressure ratio accuracy in the face of parasitic losses
This is basically an iterative process. This is described pretty well in Corky's book, so I won't string the equations out here.

The most important point here is that the pressure ratio is still valid with typical belt losses (10%), and if you could get a 75% efficient intercooler (not hard), you will still hit the 350 WHP target.

Step 3 : Calculate flow, and pick your blower
Stock flow = (132 cid x 7500 rpm x 0.5 x 0.8 ve) / 1728
Stock flow = 229 cfm
Boosted flow (@16 psi) = 229 cfm x 2.1 Page Ranking = 481 cfm (at redline)

The right blower can supply the engine with the right flow at redline. The smallest Whipple is 0.424 cfm/rev. The blower is usually driven at or greater than engine rpm. With 0.424 cfm/rev, it would only take 1134 rpm to get the needed flow.

Bottom line : the 1.2L Whipple is more than enough to supply the flow needed for 350 WHP.

Okay, I'm getting tired. That's all for this post. If anyone sees any problem with my numbers please feel free to correct me. I will post more data later on

.

ZDVS1 · 09-09-2002, 12:47 PM

Those numbers look good to me. I'm ordering both Corky's books today from Amazon, they should be here within a week. I'll verify the numbers then. Knowing that the blower is only having to spin 1/7th the speed of the motor as opposed to the usual 2X rpm makes me happy. They run cool already, and the fact that it'll only have to spin at 1/14th of the usual means less parasitic loss and lower IAT's... This is looking better by the moment

I'll post again when I have the books inhand. Thanks for all your help.

-Scott

UPDATE:: I just ordered over $130 in books. Both Corky's and various supercharger/honda-acura tuning books. Should be here in a week or so.

Artifex · 09-09-2002, 06:29 PM

Actually, it was an interesting exercise for me to calculate the flow for the 1.2L Whipple.

That little blower can make so much flow that it is capable of supporting a rediculous amount of HP. Just as an exercise for me, here's how much:

0.424 cfm/rev
10,000 rpm blower top speed (guesstimate)

4240 cfm max flow from blower

4240 cfm / 229 cfm = 18.5 pressure ratio

18.5 Page Ranking = 272 psi

200 HP * 18.5 Page Ranking = 3700 HP

Artifex · 09-09-2002, 06:45 PM

OMG!!

Guess what I just realized. Since those HP numbers look so damn wack, I decided to check up on some of my math.

My math came out fine. It's Whipple's math I have a bit of a problem with. Check this out :

1.2L/0.424cfm/rev for the 1200AX

Except, the problem with this is that 1.2L is not 0.424 cfm. It's 0.0424 cfm. That makes a huge difference.

Revisiting the last set of equations :

484 cfm / 0.0424 cfm/rev = 11415 rpm

11.5k blower speed sounds high to me. Whipple doesn't specify the redline of their blowers, but it is probably in the 15k range. In order to keep the parasitic drag on the crankshaft lower, the next size up is probably appropriate here :

484 cfm / 0.0565 cfm/rev = 8566 rpm
That sounds more reasonable. Plus you would have some room to grow if you wanted to up the boost.

I can't believe Whipple f*cked up that bad on their own site. It's even wrong on their other models as well. What a bunch of dingbats

.

ZDVS1 · 09-09-2002, 09:41 PM

LOL... those numbers sound more realistic. I was kinda amazed how good it was sounding. But a 1-to-1 blower/engine speed ratio doesn't sound too bad.