bit of a newb to the forum, but not a newb to hondas.
Bit of background....
I have been a mechanic for 20+ years ( man I'm old.....) and a high performance engine builder/tuner for about 8 years... so I hope i understand the basics.
I have always owned hondas because, as a mechanic, i recognized early on the quality and engineering they offered.
So here is my current build plan:
'01 prelude SH with......:
GT 3076R turbo ( already have)
Mahle gold dished pistons ( already have )
Crower billet steal rods (already have )
Skunk2 intake & TB (already have )
spearco air to water intercooler ( already have )
Stock head expertly ported, ( superflow flowbench etc...
MegaSquirt EMS ( already have* see below )
So what I don't have yet are:
Valve train ( ordered a KMS set, but got screwed on ebay )
cams, ( looking at skunk2 pro+ stage 1 )
injectors ( was going to go with RC injectors but now considering Bosch EV14 units)
Custom tubular turbo manifold ( building myself cause I cant find a good quality one.......)
So I have a few questions for the gurus or those who have already done it:
1. Is KMS ( supertech ) a good choice?
2. anyone run the skunk2 pro+ stage 1 with a turbo?
3. are the bosch injectors better than the RC's?
4. planning on installing a block guard (KMS), before I machine it for the pistons, however I am wondering if it is needed at the ~500HP level? from what i've researched, when plenty of others are making ~500+ HP on stock B blocks, that the H block should be fine at this level and the block guard is hopefully good insurance. Or would it be better to "post" the block? or better to leave it alone... or is sleeving mandatory?
While I know that there are lots of people who insist that sleeving is absolutely a must, I humbly think that at this power level with proper tuning it is not needed.
5. I am planning on building a 321 stainless steal turbo manifold with (as close to i can get) equal length runners, either a 4-2-1 setup (preferred) or a 4-1 (cheaper) because as of yet I cannot find a good quality turbo manifold.
* Megasquirt is a DIY stand alone engine management system, with, what in my opinion, has a fuel and spark management algorithm on par with the best ( AEM, MoTech) and a tuning manual that should be considered the tuners bible. Even if you are using hondata, motech, AEM, or any other aftermarket controller or stock ECM modifier, the " megamanual " is a novice tuners dream.
You really think the MS-EFI is as good as a Motec? I'm definitely going to disagree with you there.
I have some suggestions for you:
1. You need to find a solution for your ATTS. The clutchpacks in the ATTS unit cannot reliably handle over 250 WTQ. Simplest is to disable it entirely, but you are dragging around 100 lbs of dead weight.
2. You have to sleeve the block, you have no choice. The Mahle Golds don't work with FRM. H series blocks are quite different from B-series, you can't treat them the same way.
3. I would not run a large N/A cam on an FI motor; the results will probably be pretty bad. I would stick with stock cams.
4. You should run the ID injectors. Best money can buy, no exceptions.
Read : Injector Dynamics
5. You need more fueling. Stock pump won't cut it at this level.
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So you wanna run this 500+hp, but the handling of the prelude rear gets shaky due to its heavy weight in the front. Even with improved suspension, it'll be hard to control the weight to power ratio if your running this on a windy track. What suspension set up do you have planed to control the weight transfers during a run. Big brake kits help but with the power... the tires traction only last so long on FF cars.
You really think the MS-EFI is as good as a Motec? I'm definitely going to disagree with you there. I was speaking in terms of fuel and spark control algorithms, MS is fairly advanced, but no, its definitely not a motech, but then again it doesn't cost as much either....
I have some suggestions for you:
1. You need to find a solution for your ATTS. The clutchpacks in the ATTS unit cannot reliably handle over 250 WTQ. Simplest is to disable it entirely, but you are dragging around 100 lbs of dead weight.
... Yea, I know the ATTS is a week point to say the least. disabling it electronically is not that hard though, and while it is extra weight its not 100LBs.
2. You have to sleeve the block, you have no choice. The Mahle Golds don't work with FRM. H series blocks are quite different from B-series, you can't treat them the same way.
???? WHAT???? the whole reason I bought them is they claim that they are the only pistons that will work with FRM ! Are they wrong? did they lie?
3. I would not run a large N/A cam on an FI motor; the results will probably be pretty bad. I would stick with stock cams. stock cams are toast, that was my original plan, and scunk2 claimes that the pro+ stage 1 cams work well with turbos, with a bit of adjustment..
4. You should run the ID injectors. Best money can buy, no exceptions.
Read : Injector Dynamics, I'll look into those
5. You need more fueling. Stock pump won't cut it at this level.
Yea, was planning on that
and im 99% positive that the megasquirt will NOT allow you to keep the ATTS either.
Was not planning on having the MS control the ATTS, it has its own ECU, and can be disabled electronically with one wire ( have to go back and check on that but if I remember correctly just a single wire...)
So you wanna run this 500+hp, but the handling of the prelude rear gets shaky due to its heavy weight in the front. Even with improved suspension, it'll be hard to control the weight to power ratio if your running this on a windy track. What suspension set up do you have planed to control the weight transfers during a run. Big brake kits help but with the power... the tires traction only last so long on FF cars.
Ahhh... your right, im convinced, cause it wont handle great on twisties i should just bag the whole thing....
my goal is to build a car that i can play with on the street with the boost turned down to ~300-350 hp, and on weekends throw some tires on it and go play at the drag strip ( no turns ) so yea, its front heavy, but its front heavy with or without the turbo. Sure there are loads of cars out there that handle better, are RWD blah blah blah ... I have a prelude, so its what i will play with.
Ok, so while we are on the ATTS subject, it was my main concern, I had read that the clutch packs in it give out at ~250 ft/lb of tourque. but the clutch packs are only applied when cornering correct? so if it is disabled then is it still a week link? if so I have a spare non SH block that could be used, but I'll need to scrounge up some bits to get the tranny for it ready to go.
However, now I am a bit concerned about the MAHLE pistons. they state quite proudly that these pistons are fully compatible with FRM, have people had problems with them? The honing procedure for FRM is quite specific, you cant just hone the block like every other block, it takes a certain stone at a certain presure, stroke and cross hatch etc.
ok, for the injectors... the ID injectors are the bosch EV14 injectors, same injector, those are the ones I was talking about. bosch sells them in sets guaranteed within 1%.
BTW please use the quote feature, it's very hard to read your posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joy120373
... Yea, I know the ATTS is a week point to say the least. disabling it electronically is not that hard though, and while it is extra weight its not 100LBs.
Actually, we have measured it. It's close to 100lbs.
Quote:
2. You have to sleeve the block, you have no choice. The Mahle Golds don't work with FRM. H series blocks are quite different from B-series, you can't treat them the same way.
???? WHAT???? the whole reason I bought them is they claim that they are the only pistons that will work with FRM ! Are they wrong? did they lie?
I haven't heard of any person successfully running Mahle's on stock cylinders, especially under boost. There was a huge thread about this over on Honda-Tech. All responses were negative IIRC.
Quote:
3. I would not run a large N/A cam on an FI motor; the results will probably be pretty bad. I would stick with stock cams. stock cams are toast, that was my original plan, and scunk2 claimes that the pro+ stage 1 cams work well with turbos, with a bit of adjustment..
There are a ton of tuners who will tell you otherwise.
You can just buy the Bosch injectors, but again I reccomend the ID versions. They provide a very valuable characterization service that is worth the money.
__________________
I am not an active moderator on this site anymore. Please contact Phryxis or liquidxnitez for help with your issues.
Actually, we have measured it. It's close to 100lbs.
no kidding....? I don't remember it as being all that heavy.... but i didn't actually weigh it so i'll take your word on it!
Quote:
I haven't heard of any person successfully running Mahle's on stock cylinders, especially under boost. There was a huge thread about this over on Honda-Tech. All responses were negative IIRC.
That is really discouraging, not that i'm opposed to installing sleeves, just that I took Mahle at there word. I live in a fairly small town, no machine shops around here will even touch a honda sleeve job. And at the power levels i was going to run I thought it overkill anyway. So now I have seemingly wasted ~$500. bummer
Cams....
Quote:
There are a ton of tuners who will tell you otherwise.
well as i said, original plan was to use the stock units, however upon tear down my cams and rockers were worn to the point of needing new stuff. So I figured a good aftermarket " stage 1 " ( whatever that means..... ) would be a likely substitute.
If guys that have used this cam find it to big then i will not go against the grain here. so if I can get a good set of stock cams great, however are there any good substitutes aftermarket turbo cams included?
thanks for all the input, while i am truly bummed that i have wasted money on pistons, you may have saved me from believing scunk2's claims about that cam, possibly saving me some money, and headaches.
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