actually, i talked to doug at EFI systems today. the current version of the PMS does not have a built in map limiter. it also does NOT adjust fuel for boost off a stock map sensor; you need to use a gm 3 bar and hook it up to the dedicated harness for that.
it sounded like they were going to change this next time around, with the ability to use the boost tables from the stock map input and then limit the value seen by the ECU to a user selectable voltage. for now, you'll have to handle that yourself. too bad.
Quote:
Originally posted by sharkcohen Yes, you are right on that. Apparently, according to EFI Systems the PMS in some way does limit the stock map sensor signal, while using a seperate GM 3 bar map sensor to see boost. I'm trying to find out now from EFI how exactly the PMS does limit boost.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
I spoke with Doug today as well, and you are correct, the current version does not have the limiter. However, he told me that the current version is no longer available from them, that they are producing the new version, and that it will be available by the end of June. I was speaking concerning the new version coming up. Also, my understanding from Doug was that the new version will still be using the GM 3 bar sensor for reading boost.
In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing how PMS goes on your system, schwett. It's going to be quite a while, I think, before anything goes on my car, which gives me plenty of time to decide on what system to go with. I might even just wait for the new AEM EMS that will support honda automatics. We'll see.
Quote:
Originally posted by schwett actually, i talked to doug at EFI systems today. the current version of the PMS does not have a built in map limiter. it also does NOT adjust fuel for boost off a stock map sensor; you need to use a gm 3 bar and hook it up to the dedicated harness for that.
it sounded like they were going to change this next time around, with the ability to use the boost tables from the stock map input and then limit the value seen by the ECU to a user selectable voltage. for now, you'll have to handle that yourself. too bad.
__________________
Last edited by sharkcohen : 05-14-2002 at 08:44 PM.
I know the Subaru guys use some type of voltage clamp to limit the signal to the ECU. I would think that this would be more reliable than a mechanical check valve (ie. Missing Link).
__________________
Tony S. '03 WRX ... 12.69 @ 108.0 - full interior, stock 16s, street tires
'99 2.5RS '97 Prelude (old car) ... 13.94 @ 100.3 - full interior, empty trunk, 17s, street tires.
Doug at EFI told me that the new PMS coming out at the end of June for honda's would be using a voltage clamp for exactly that purpose.
Quote:
Originally posted by Obsidian7 I know the Subaru guys use some type of voltage clamp to limit the signal to the ECU. I would think that this would be more reliable than a mechanical check valve (ie. Missing Link).
__________________
Last edited by sharkcohen : 05-15-2002 at 12:54 AM.
Originally posted by Obsidian7 I know the Subaru guys use some type of voltage clamp to limit the signal to the ECU. I would think that this would be more reliable than a mechanical check valve (ie. Missing Link).
Personally I don't see any reason why a missing link would be less reliable then an electronic version.
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
i plan on making a little electronic one per 00G and/or xtal. the missing link seems solid enough, but i'd rather be able to pick the voltage explicitly!
Quote:
Originally posted by Smilez
Personally I don't see any reason why a missing link would be less reliable then an electronic version.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
does anyone know how i can contact J&S independent of any parts dealer or distributor?? I want to talk to them about the new version they have coming out as well as the MAP limiter function to figure out if i can scrap the JR electronics completely with an ultra safeguard
--any contact number or website would help out a lot
Originally posted by zarmchicoca does anyone know how i can contact J&S independent of any parts dealer or distributor?? I want to talk to them about the new version they have coming out as well as the MAP limiter function to figure out if i can scrap the JR electronics completely with an ultra safeguard
--any contact number or website would help out a lot
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
Originally posted by smoothludey
The J&S essentially plays with the fuel mixture and the ignition timing to avoid detonation, so my question is why pay $700 for something that good tuning on a Hondata and MSD ignition systems can accomplish?
The J&S unit doesn't play with any fuel mixture. period. I have one on my lude and it has proven very effective in saving my motor. The J&S doesn't really pull out timing until it hears detonation, very active unit, unlike the btm.. its just pulls a fix amount of timing all the time and if something does happen, it has no way of "fixing" it. The J&S will retard timing to a max of 20degrees if needed to prevent damage in case of detonation. It is your safeguard.
also, the J&S installation will take about 15 mins. if u know how to install a radio, installing a J&S is a piece of cake. being able to set the J&S to read everything correctly is a two man's job. J&S is very sensitive in reading knock. but if you fallow J&S's instructions, you be fine.
The J&S unit doesn't play with any fuel mixture. period. I have one on my lude and it has proven very effective in saving my motor. The J&S doesn't really pull out timing until it hears detonation, very active unit, unlike the btm.. its just pulls a fix amount of timing all the time and if something does happen, it has no way of "fixing" it. The J&S will retard timing to a max of 20degrees if needed to prevent damage in case of detonation. It is your safeguard.
also, the J&S installation will take about 15 mins. if u know how to install a radio, installing a J&S is a piece of cake. being able to set the J&S to read everything correctly is a two man's job. J&S is very sensitive in reading knock. but if you fallow J&S's instructions, you be fine.
You're right, it doesn't play with the fuel mixture, but if it did that would make the ultimate safeguard. The dual monitor just monitors the A/F ratio for tuning purposes. However, i still feel that fuel delivery is most important in terms of preventing detonation. A hiccup in the fuel delivery will most likely spell disaster regardless of how much you retard the timing. A stock 5th gen runs 290cc saturated injectors and running them at full duty for boost is probably not the safest thing to do. So when you upgrade injectors to say 440s, which is what most boosted ludes have, you need a hondata to precisely control the injectors. In addition to injectors the capacity of the stock fuel pump comes into question. For those boosting less than 10 pounds, the stock pump is probably adequate, but with aftermarket pumps costing about $100 it begs the question, why not a new fuel pump? Now we come back to the original question, why don't more boosted hondas run a J&S? It's true, alot of boosted cars in general don't run a J&S and this is why i believe that is the case: The J&S is essentially (correct me if i'm wrong, and i'm wrong alot) a btm with active knock control. Your basic btm runs about $200, whereas a J&S w/ dual monitor will run about $700, so cost is probably one factor. Another thing is a good number boosted hondas rebuild their motors with iron sleeves, forged pistons, etc... so performance is their goal and detonation control is not as critical as it is with a stock motor. Since the J&S is so sensitive it might cut into the performance of people running high boost and/or they feel that having adequate fuel delivery with high octane fuel, lower compression pistons, and a simple btm will more than cure all their detonation problems. I have stated over and over that when you run turbo or JRSC that before installing a J&S i would upgrade the fuel system, upgrade to hondata and an aftermarket ignition system (btm). Also, since stock H22s don't boost reliably over the long term, a rebuild is in order for most of us, so i advocate using the extra cash to upgrade the motor.
i think the fuel system upgrade is a must. fpr, pump, etc. it would be crazy to run any type of boost at any level without upgrading ur fuel system. i personally don't know any luders out here that runs any boosted lude without upgrading the fuel system. but its always good to have a safeguard. extra protection will not hurt.
Originally posted by smoothludey
Since the J&S is so sensitive it might cut into the performance of people running high boost and/or they feel that having adequate fuel delivery with high octane fuel, lower compression pistons, and a simple btm will more than cure all their detonation problems.
This statement almost validates *getting* a j&s since you can run closer to the edge of detination, giving you more power, but having a safeguard incase something happens
Quote:
Originally posted by smoothludey I have stated over and over that when you run turbo or JRSC that before installing a J&S i would upgrade the fuel system, upgrade to hondata and an aftermarket ignition system (btm). Also, since stock H22s don't boost reliably over the long term, a rebuild is in order for most of us, so i advocate using the extra cash to upgrade the motor.
Well, I'm still hesitent to take your advice, seeing how your advocating having a BTW along with a standalone that lets you dial in timing to your exact choice instead of specifing a specific amount of retard under boost no matter the amount or rpm.
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
This statement almost validates *getting* a j&s since you can run closer to the edge of detination, giving you more power, but having a safeguard incase something happens
I agree, i'm just as curious as to why so many people that run a turbo or supercharger don't use one for the added performance or safety. However, i've heard people complain that it cuts into performance since it's so sensitive, retarding ignition excessively. Can you come up with any reason why so many people don't use it other than the fact that they might not know about it?
Quote:
Well, I'm still hesitent to take your advice, seeing how your advocating having a BTW along with a standalone that lets you dial in timing to your exact choice instead of specifing a specific amount of retard under boost no matter the amount or rpm.
Upgrading to MSD ignition will give you more precise spark power for better combustion and has in addition ignition control like a btm. If you are boosting less than 11 pounds then use the hondata or upgrade to the 3 bar map sensor for more than 11 pounds or you can use the btm capabilities of the MSD.
I don't have a survey why people don't use it, but I'd imagine its something like the cost, not knowing about it, not wanting to install it because they've heard its tough, etc, the sensitivity is adjustable, so I'm not sure why that would be a reason, beyond hearsay, you could turn it down if it was coming in too early.
Well, you said BTM, so I appoligize if I missunderstood that as just a btm, not an ignition with retard like a 6BTM. Are you suggesting that people should use a btm to control timing when they are running over 11lbs?
I would think that people that build their block and upgrade their fuel system would spend the money to get a stand alone to control timing, and if they didn't want to, then actually a J&S v2 would be great for them because then they can set at what boost to have the timing start in on. The fact that they built their engine probably means that they are running lower compression and probably don't want to have 1-3 degrees of retard starting at 1lbs of boost. The fact that they are using something like an FMU or MF2 would say to me that having a safeguard incase something goes wrong would be the best case to get one. And having an electronic check map would be nice as well.
If they do have a stand alone, then I don't see any reason for the BTM model, a straight ignition would suffice. Personally I would get an accel, but thats just me.
Note: You don't need a 3 bar map sensor unless you are boosting over 1 bar.
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
How sensitive is the J&S?? I heard there may be problems with the J&S in conjuction with forged pistons
--if you had to lower the sensitivity to compensate for piston noise or engine noise, wouldn't this negate the benefits of active retard??
--also is it impossible to tune the J&S without the dual monitor; i am considering getting J&S but i am concerned as to whether I would need the dual monitor to tune the J&S and i am also worried about future piston noise if i do an engine rebuild
The J&S is very sensitive, yes, but that's controllable. Some engines are very quite and some are very loud, making adjusting the sensitivity of the unit a lil hard. But it can be done with two people. This info can be found on J&S Safeguard's tuning guide. I m not going to go into details about tuning it, but if you can get it to stop pull timing in regards to engine noise, you are set (this is the hard part of the J&S, will take two people to do this on the freeway).
Anyways, like I said before.. This unit really does work and it did save my motor when I had it tune by someone who claimed he know how to tune the ludes with my setup* and ended detonating at 9lbs. All tuning and work are now done by me.
I would get both the safeguard and the dual monitor or nothing at all. Without the dual monitor, u won't be able to tell what is going on during boost or anything.
I agreed with everything smilez said. If boosting high, getting a stand alone unit will be able to control all aspect of timing and fuel curve. Why bother with btm? On the other hand, the Safeguard will be able to safely guard your investment if something does occur, like pump failure, injector failure, etc.
The extra noise that comes from forged pistons will be able to compensate with the adjustment of the safeguard sensitivity knob.
The main reason I think that people don't get the safeguard is cost and complexity of tuning because of ignorance. Not really complex, if you call J&S and have them answer all your questions. J&S, to my experience, was glad to help me and show me the right way of tuning and operating the unit.
Anyways, it doesn't hurt to have more safeguard to protect your investments.
A new block for 700? Why would you want a "new" block when you are going to strip it and sleeve it anyway? That's a HUGE waste of $$. You can get a blown block on ebay for 250. I have seen them as cheap as 100. Most will come with the crank and pistons too.
Or, there is some company on there always selling full, running motors with like 50K (alternator, PS equip., AC, oil pan, head, tranny ... EVERYTHING) for 1400
lol I didn't even realize this was a revived post, but in all honesty I am using a msd knock meter in my car and use it to measure knock and will have uberdata setup to datalog it, and in all honesty I do agree with the purpose of the J&S safegaurd just not the price, it's so damned expensive for what it is. Ahh screw ti I am starting up a dead post
i'll just stick to my hondata, 1000cc injectors, 255lph pump and my wideband o2. that's just a waste of 700 bucks. when a wideband can be had for 300. plus i no longer have a knock sensor in my car.
__________________
The DARKSIDE awaits you!!
360 whp
409.9 ft-lbs of torque
gotta love a turbo h23...
Oh boy, J&S. I personally won't trust it. Of course I don't have one. But there are so many noise that go on in the engine bay, you tell me a little microphone can pick up it all and the processor it has could tell the difference between knock and regular engine sound?
If it runs on the safe side, it would retard timing even when actual knock is not there.
If it runs to produce power, it may not pick up all the knock. To me that tunning is a little scary, like walking a fine line.
On a seperate note, I read some where professional race team put strain gauges on the cylinders of the race motor. That mean for our I-4 we will need 4 seperate strain gauge. By doing this, they can physically see knock based on reading from the gauge?
Can anyone confirm if this is indeed valid. From a mechanical point of view, it does make sense, as knock are mini explosion in the cylinder that happens out of sync with regular combustion process?
Oh boy, J&S. I personally won't trust it. Of course I don't have one. But there are so many noise that go on in the engine bay, you tell me a little microphone can pick up it all and the processor it has could tell the difference between knock and regular engine sound?
If it runs on the safe side, it would retard timing even when actual knock is not there.
If it runs to produce power, it may not pick up all the knock. To me that tunning is a little scary, like walking a fine line.
