well, if you have bad injectors and bad fuel delivery, not even the Almighty can save you from detonation. The J&S will only delay the inevitable....the consensus is that boosted stock ludes will need a rebuild within 6 months or a year. Are you willing to pay $700 for a few extra months?
Ok
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
well, i personally would prefer a well tuned car to a badly tuned car one with a j&s, but i would prefer a well tuned car with a j&s to both of those, hands down. the costs of rebuilding a motor are way up into the thousands of dollars (don't forget LABOR)...
700 bucks for j&s is nothing compared to that. standalones are great, but we're still talking about cars that were not designed to boost. a tank of bad gas or some other oddball condition and you're hosed.
as for your comment about people who "don't properly set up the JRSC," i don't think that's the case at all. my JRSC was installed and dyno tuned by very well known and experienced tuners, dozens and dozens of turbo'd and jrsc'd hondas and acuras under their belt. the problem was not with the installers or tuners.
Quote:
Originally posted by smoothludey
If detonation is the killer of all motors, then J&S is not the end-all answer. There are so many other ways to prevent detonation that are so much more cost effective and practical than a J&S. You can tune the fuel mixture and improve fuel delivery with aftermarket pumps/rails/fprs/injectors, retard the ignition timing, decrease the compression, or decrease the intake charge air. The J&S essentially plays with the fuel mixture and the ignition timing to avoid detonation, so my question is why pay $700 for something that good tuning on a Hondata and MSD ignition systems can accomplish? It would be more practical to upgrade to a standalone and the ignition in a FI system to begin with.
As for doing FI on Honda with internals that border on reliability under boost conditions...we are all dancing with the devil. I know most people who turbo their hondas never expect their motors to last as long as an NA setup, so a rebuild is something anticipated somewhere down the line. I understand that JRSC was SUPPOSED to be more reliable than a turbo setup, which was one of the reasons i contemplated a blower for my lude. However, it turns out that the JRSC wasn't as reliable as advertised and it doesn't surprise me that people who don't properly set up prelude JRSCs are blowing their motors, there just isn't anything to cool the intake charge air. The blower kits for civics and tegs more times than not come with at least an aftercooler. I'm currently running a turbo setup on my prelude with a stock motor, anticipating the worst now more so than ever after hearing all these horror stories. It's just not fair that we have to spend more money to get the same amount of power that other cars are pushing.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
one more thing. of the methods you listed, two are more expensive than the J&S - decrease the compression (means taking the head off for sure, possibly new internals, at the least a new headgasket) and decrease the intake charge air (intercoolers and the requisite plumbing are not cheap, if they're feasible at all depending on the situation.) a fuel rail isn't going to make a bit of difference in the 250whp range. pump and fpr is a given if we're talking about mechanically increasing fuel delivery. a bigger pump or "better" fpr won't make a difference. bigger injectors are the real solution to fuel delivery issues, but they open up another can of worms in terms of controlling them. "retard the ignition timing" is exactly what the j&s does, and it's particularly useful on the 5th gen because you can't adjust the timing at the distributor.
the j&s is not a substitute for adequate fuel delivery, so i don't see how you can say it would be better to get an aftermarket pump/rail/fpr/etc.
both timing and fuel need to be taken care of. the former can be nicely handled by the j&s, and i don't think $5-700 is unreasonable considering how much a lame BTC or BTM cost.
Quote:
Originally posted by smoothludey
If detonation is the killer of all motors, then J&S is not the end-all answer. There are so many other ways to prevent detonation that are so much more cost effective and practical than a J&S. You can tune the fuel mixture and improve fuel delivery with aftermarket pumps/rails/fprs/injectors, retard the ignition timing, decrease the compression, or decrease the intake charge air. The J&S essentially plays with the fuel mixture and the ignition timing to avoid detonation, so my question is why pay $700 for something that good tuning on a Hondata and MSD ignition systems can accomplish? It would be more practical to upgrade to a standalone and the ignition in a FI system to begin with.
As for doing FI on Honda with internals that border on reliability under boost conditions...we are all dancing with the devil. I know most people who turbo their hondas never expect their motors to last as long as an NA setup, so a rebuild is something anticipated somewhere down the line. I understand that JRSC was SUPPOSED to be more reliable than a turbo setup, which was one of the reasons i contemplated a blower for my lude. However, it turns out that the JRSC wasn't as reliable as advertised and it doesn't surprise me that people who don't properly set up prelude JRSCs are blowing their motors, there just isn't anything to cool the intake charge air. The blower kits for civics and tegs more times than not come with at least an aftercooler. I'm currently running a turbo setup on my prelude with a stock motor, anticipating the worst now more so than ever after hearing all these horror stories. It's just not fair that we have to spend more money to get the same amount of power that other cars are pushing.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
A proper set up for a JRSC would include (IMO), a dyno tuned fuel map set to avoid detonation under the harshest of conditions, an MSD ignition system that can retard timing per pound of boost, and a proper fuel setup ( more often than not the culprit behind most detonations). I don't know your setup Schwett, but all signs point to detonation in your motor. The cause of it, i can only guess it was high intake charge temps.
If your goal was lots of power, there's a chance that it was tuned aggressively and thus reliability suffered. If you want power and reliability, better have a big bank account to back it up cuz it's gonna get expensive.
Originally posted by schwett one more thing. of the methods you listed, two are more expensive than the J&S - decrease the compression (means taking the head off for sure, possibly new internals, at the least a new headgasket) and decrease the intake charge air (intercoolers and the requisite plumbing are not cheap, if they're feasible at all depending on the situation.) a fuel rail isn't going to make a bit of difference in the 250whp range. pump and fpr is a given if we're talking about mechanically increasing fuel delivery. a bigger pump or "better" fpr won't make a difference. bigger injectors are the real solution to fuel delivery issues, but they open up another can of worms in terms of controlling them. "retard the ignition timing" is exactly what the j&s does, and it's particularly useful on the 5th gen because you can't adjust the timing at the distributor.
the j&s is not a substitute for adequate fuel delivery, so i don't see how you can say it would be better to get an aftermarket pump/rail/fpr/etc.
both timing and fuel need to be taken care of. the former can be nicely handled by the j&s, and i don't think $5-700 is unreasonable considering how much a lame BTC or BTM cost.
Decreasing compression using a thicker head gasket will allow you to boost more safely and allows you to boost more for more power. A new, thicker headgasket will run you about $100 and taking off the head is usually around $300...so $400 total there. A new MSD Digital-6 with high voltage coil will run you about $400 plus installation, so about $600 tops. The MSD setup not only acts as a BTM, but it provides a more powerful spark for better combustion as well. The fuel system upgrade for any FI setup is a must. An intank fuel pump runs about $150, rail $100, fpr $150. It gives you more fuel on tap and the rail and fpr serve to distribute the increase in fuel pressure more evenly and efficiently between the injectors. Running with larger injectors is not a problem with hondata, besides wouldn't you rather run a lower duty cycle with larger injectors than you would a higher duty cycle with smaller ones? I'm not entirely against J&S, it's just a real ***** to install and it's not cheap. The one thing i like about the J&S is that you can run aggressive timing for more power with confidence.
Originally posted by smoothludey
Decreasing compression using a thicker head gasket will allow you to boost more safely and allows you to boost more for more power. A new, thicker headgasket will run you about $100 and taking off the head is usually around $300...so $400 total there. A new MSD Digital-6 with high voltage coil will run you about $400 plus installation, so about $600 tops. The MSD setup not only acts as a BTM, but it provides a more powerful spark for better combustion as well. The fuel system upgrade for any FI setup is a must. An intank fuel pump runs about $150, rail $100, fpr $150. It gives you more fuel on tap and the rail and fpr serve to distribute the increase in fuel pressure more evenly and efficiently between the injectors. Running with larger injectors is not a problem with hondata, besides wouldn't you rather run a lower duty cycle with larger injectors than you would a higher duty cycle with smaller ones? I'm not entirely against J&S, it's just a real ***** to install and it's not cheap. The one thing i like about the J&S is that you can run aggressive timing for more power with confidence.
A BTM device is "passive"... the J&S is capable of doing this (but JRSC Preludes don't need this because of the JR EMS)... the J&S is also "active"... meaning that it will pull out timing (it doesn't mess with fuel) if and when it sees detonation.
My fuel upgrades are the JR (Walbro) fuel pump, 550cc Bosche injectors, and the Hondata. Even though it was all dyno tuned, you can't take into account every possible situation on the dyno (bad gas, flaky injector, etc.) ...so I chose to install a J&S Safeguard as a... uhh... safeguard.
"***** to install"???? ..took me about 15-20 minutes just to wire it in and test it out. it took longer to actually mount it and hide things away.
__________________
Tony S. '03 WRX ... 12.69 @ 108.0 - full interior, stock 16s, street tires
'99 2.5RS '97 Prelude (old car) ... 13.94 @ 100.3 - full interior, empty trunk, 17s, street tires.
A BTM device is "passive"... the J&S is capable of doing this (but JRSC Preludes don't need this because of the JR EMS)... the J&S is also "active"... meaning that it will pull out timing (it doesn't mess with fuel) if and when it sees detonation.
My fuel upgrades are the JR (Walbro) fuel pump, 550cc Bosche injectors, and the Hondata. Even though it was all dyno tuned, you can't take into account every possible situation on the dyno (bad gas, flaky injector, etc.) ...so I chose to install a J&S Safeguard as a... uhh... safeguard.
"***** to install"???? ..took me about 15-20 minutes just to wire it in and test it out. it took longer to actually mount it and hide things away.
Tony,
i know you...not really, but i've heard of you....I had my turbo done at Payn tech as well. None of the guys there advocate the J&S. Anywayz, i think everyone is missing my point...the point is, why spend $700 on a J&S when you could spend it on other stuff like ignition/fuel/hondata. You are going to have to do a rebuild within a year guaranteed unless you are really lucky, so the $700 to save your block was all for nothing. If it makes you feel any better to spend $700 so you can sleep at night, by all means do so. The only difference is like what tony mentioned, the active timing adjustments that senses detonation, but sometimes in the worst case scenario not even retarding the timing can save the motor, it doesn't have spider-man precognition. I'm assuming that it smells detonation when the primary O2 sensor senses lean....but what if your O2 sensor gets burned out, what then?
For those of you with FI and contemplating J&S, save that money and resleeve your block.
the j&s doesn't smell detonation by looking at the O2 sensor. that wouldn't work. it listens to the knock sensor.
Quote:
Originally posted by smoothludey
.... I'm assuming that it smells detonation when the primary O2 sensor senses lean....but what if your O2 sensor gets burned out, what then?
For those of you with FI and contemplating J&S, save that money and resleeve your block.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
Good work guy, making recomendations without having any idea how a product works, did you even read how it works or what it does before coming up with your opinion? Or did you just go by what payn tech said.
Quote:
Originally posted by smoothludey
Tony,
i know you...not really, but i've heard of you....I had my turbo done at Payn tech as well. None of the guys there advocate the J&S. Anywayz, i think everyone is missing my point...the point is, why spend $700 on a J&S when you could spend it on other stuff like ignition/fuel/hondata. You are going to have to do a rebuild within a year guaranteed unless you are really lucky, so the $700 to save your block was all for nothing. If it makes you feel any better to spend $700 so you can sleep at night, by all means do so. The only difference is like what tony mentioned, the active timing adjustments that senses detonation, but sometimes in the worst case scenario not even retarding the timing can save the motor, it doesn't have spider-man precognition. I'm assuming that it smells detonation when the primary O2 sensor senses lean....but what if your O2 sensor gets burned out, what then?
For those of you with FI and contemplating J&S, save that money and resleeve your block.
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
Originally posted by schwett you know what they say about assuming......
the j&s doesn't smell detonation by looking at the O2 sensor. that wouldn't work. it listens to the knock sensor.
LOL....knock sensor? That means when you do the OBD1 conversion for hondata you will need a P72...which is about $150 more.... so make that $850 plus installation for J&S....we're getting close to the price of a new motor here.
Originally posted by smoothludey
LOL....knock sensor? That means when you do the OBD1 conversion for hondata you will need a P72...which is about $150 more.... so make that $850 plus installation for J&S....we're getting close to the price of a new motor here.
I think you should figure out the facts before you embarass yourself further, the J&S is post ecu, having a J&S almost alone justifies getting a P28 instead of a P72 because then you don't have to let the ecu do the knock sensing since the j&s can do it for you.
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
Originally posted by Smilez Good work guy, making recomendations without having any idea how a product works, did you even read how it works or what it does before coming up with your opinion? Or did you just go by what payn tech said.
How it exactly works doesn't really affect my opinion, my point is why spend money on something to save your block, when you are gonna have to rebuild the bottom end anyway? It will only prolong the inevitable. Maybe not for all cars, but H22s for sure.
Originally posted by smoothludey
How it exactly works doesn't really affect my opinion, my point is why spend money on something to save your block, when you are gonna have to rebuild the bottom end anyway? It will only prolong the inevitable. Maybe not for all cars, but H22s for sure.
Yeah, I figured that was the case, that was why I bowed out a while ago, but you should really consider reserving your recomendations for when you know how a product actually works and when it can help. The J&S reads off your factory knock sensor or the bosch one it sometimes ships with and retards in real time if it detects knocking. The J&S is useful for saving your ass when something in the fuel system breaks down, or if your running on the ragged edge and something goes slightly wrong. No matter if you have forged pistons or not, your engine won't like detination.
If this isn't a concern for you, then don't get one, but its really a decision people should make for themselves. The J&S is proven to save engines in these situations. Not all situations, but plenty of them that to me it's worth it, I had one on my turbo prelude with a P28 hondata setup, and I'll have one on my RX-7 running a Power FC.
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
Originally posted by smoothludey
How it exactly works doesn't really affect my opinion, my point is why spend money on something to save your block, when you are gonna have to rebuild the bottom end anyway? It will only prolong the inevitable. Maybe not for all cars, but H22s for sure.
as the hole gets deeper....
__________________
2001 Milano Red Type SH
i/h/e/p, VAFC
I had my turbo done at Payn tech as well. None of the guys there advocate the J&S.
You're not serious, are you?!? Tom Payn himself is all about the J&S. Kevin (head mechanic) has one sitting in his car waiting to be installed along with his new motor.
Quote:
LOL....knock sensor? That means when you do the OBD1 conversion for hondata you will need a P72...which is about $150 more.... so make that $850 plus installation for J&S....we're getting close to the price of a new motor here.
OK, I'm sorry, but this just proves that you don't know what you're talking about. Just because you use a P28 (like me) for your Hondata setup, doesn't mean that your motor instantly loses the knock sensor.. it's still there, screwed into the side of the block. The P28 just happens to "ignore" it.
I found this earlier in the thread:
Quote:
the consensus is that boosted stock ludes will need a rebuild within 6 months or a year.
Hmm.. I've been boosted for over a year now. I'd like to build an engine for next year, anyway.. my motor seems ok for now.
Smilez, I agree with everything you have said in this thread. I've heard that for many RX-7 people, a J&S is their first "mod" because deontation is *extremely* bad for Wankel engines.
__________________
Tony S. '03 WRX ... 12.69 @ 108.0 - full interior, stock 16s, street tires
'99 2.5RS '97 Prelude (old car) ... 13.94 @ 100.3 - full interior, empty trunk, 17s, street tires.
Originally posted by Obsidian7
Smilez, I agree with everything you have said in this thread. I've heard that for many RX-7 people, a J&S is their first "mod" because deontation is *extremely* bad for Wankel engines. [/B]
Thanks, I think we are on the same page here
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
Originally posted by Obsidian7 You're not serious, are you?!? Tom Payn himself is all about the J&S. Kevin (head mechanic) has one sitting in his car waiting to be installed along with his new motor.
Well, when i brought up using a J&S he pretty much said i didn't need it and that tuning the hondata right and dialing out timing would prevent detonation. I actually know alot of turbo folks that started out with J&S and sold their J&S in favor of standalones.
Quote:
OK, I'm sorry, but this just proves that you don't know what you're talking about. Just because you use a P28 (like me) for your Hondata setup, doesn't mean that your motor instantly loses the knock sensor.. it's still there, screwed into the side of the block. The P28 just happens to "ignore" it.
I'm sorry i didn't know that the J&S was post-ecu until smilez pointed it out to me, but knowing how it works doesn't really change anything. If you have the extra cash to get a J&S, more power to you...I think it's cool that with the J&S you can run more aggressive timing and not worry about detonation. I'm advocating that people who are boosting on stock H22s save your cash and rebuild the motor first and if you wish, J&S later. Not all of us have deep pockets and not everyone got their JRSC for FREE!!
Quote:
I found this earlier in the thread:Hmm.. I've been boosted for over a year now. I'd like to build an engine for next year, anyway.. my motor seems ok for now.
Well, what can i say...you da man...but just go talk to the other JRSC ludes in this forum, they haven't been so fortunate.
[B][QUOTE]
When Tom tunes engines on the Mustang dyno (very different than a DynoJet!), it's easy to play with the graphs on the PC so that you can actually tell if you are detonating or not (this is a plus for you and your setup.. Tom is *good*). As far as I know, the computer on a DynoJet cannot give you any information about detonating during a tuning session. If they can, I have never seen or heard of it. It was very easy to do on the Mustang dyno.
Also, we have people in this forum exclaiming things like "I can run at 3 clicks with no detonation!!". My question to them is: How do you know?
What I am leading to here is .. just because you can't hear detonation, doesn't mean that it's not happening.
SmoothLudey: if you are completely confident with your current setup.. despite any and all changes in weather, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, fuel quality, octane level, etc... along with any possible equipment malfunctions, then more power to you. I just prefer to add some extra insurance to the mix to help prevent problems.
Yes, I got my JRSC for free.. nothing more than simple, dumb luck. Aside from that, I've worked to get myself and my car to where things are today. No, I am not made of money, nor do I come from a rich background. If that were the case, trust me.. I would already have a built engine ..running a J&S
__________________
Tony S. '03 WRX ... 12.69 @ 108.0 - full interior, stock 16s, street tires
'99 2.5RS '97 Prelude (old car) ... 13.94 @ 100.3 - full interior, empty trunk, 17s, street tires.
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..running a J&S 
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