Re: Just curious.. Why do so many boosted Preludes not have a J&S Safeguard?
cost / complexity / aesthetics... in that order, mostly cost.
Quote:
Originally posted by Obsidian7 I can't imagine trying to "safely" run without a J&S Safeguard.
Is it just the cost? ..or do people not know about it?
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"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
yeah, and you can take it out and replace all the broken internals in about 15 minutes. wtf?
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Originally posted by smoothludey
you can get a new block for 700, you can resleeve your current block for 700....don't waste it on a J&S.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
i was being facetious; rebuilding a blown motor is a gigantic pain in the ass that takes more than a month and more than $1400. a J&S costs $700, can be installed easily by most people here, and may well save a lot of motors.
further, you have no idea what would or wouldn't have saved my rings. it may have been boost pressure that killed them, but more likely it was detonation.
Quote:
Originally posted by smoothludey
just like you can install a J&S in 15 min too. J&S would not have saved your rings...that was something waiting to happen.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
Originally posted by schwett i was being facetious; rebuilding a blown motor is a gigantic pain in the ass that takes more than a month and more than $1400. a J&S costs $700, can be installed easily by most people here, and may well save a lot of motors.
further, you have no idea what would or wouldn't have saved my rings. it may have been boost pressure that killed them, but more likely it was detonation.
If detonation is the killer of all motors, then J&S is not the end-all answer. There are so many other ways to prevent detonation that are so much more cost effective and practical than a J&S. You can tune the fuel mixture and improve fuel delivery with aftermarket pumps/rails/fprs/injectors, retard the ignition timing, decrease the compression, or decrease the intake charge air. The J&S essentially plays with the fuel mixture and the ignition timing to avoid detonation, so my question is why pay $700 for something that good tuning on a Hondata and MSD ignition systems can accomplish? It would be more practical to upgrade to a standalone and the ignition in a FI system to begin with.
As for doing FI on Honda with internals that border on reliability under boost conditions...we are all dancing with the devil. I know most people who turbo their hondas never expect their motors to last as long as an NA setup, so a rebuild is something anticipated somewhere down the line. I understand that JRSC was SUPPOSED to be more reliable than a turbo setup, which was one of the reasons i contemplated a blower for my lude. However, it turns out that the JRSC wasn't as reliable as advertised and it doesn't surprise me that people who don't properly set up prelude JRSCs are blowing their motors, there just isn't anything to cool the intake charge air. The blower kits for civics and tegs more times than not come with at least an aftercooler. I'm currently running a turbo setup on my prelude with a stock motor, anticipating the worst now more so than ever after hearing all these horror stories. It's just not fair that we have to spend more money to get the same amount of power that other cars are pushing.
Originally posted by smoothludey
If detonation is the killer of all motors, then J&S is not the end-all answer. There are so many other ways to prevent detonation that are so much more cost effective and practical than a J&S. You can tune the fuel mixture and improve fuel delivery with aftermarket pumps/rails/fprs/injectors, retard the ignition timing, decrease the compression, or decrease the intake charge air. The J&S essentially plays with the fuel mixture and the ignition timing to avoid detonation, so my question is why pay $700 for something that good tuning on a Hondata and MSD ignition systems can accomplish? It would be more practical to upgrade to a standalone and the ignition in a FI system to begin with.
The J&S is just that, a safeguard, it shouldn't be used to compensate for bad timing or fuel config, I'm sure we all agree on that. What happens when one of you injectors has a problem or fuel filter gets a little clogged, or fuel pump efficiency goes down under boost on your perfectly tuned hondata setup. Of course the likelyhood of those things happening are not typical, but the cost and time savings could be worth the price of the J&S if it saves your engine.
Also, you don't need the v2 setup if your running hondata, you can proboblay find someone with a classic to buy which will probably save you a couple hundred.
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
The J&S is just that, a safeguard, it shouldn't be used to compensate for bad timing or fuel config, I'm sure we all agree on that. What happens when one of you injectors has a problem or fuel filter gets a little clogged, or fuel pump efficiency goes down under boost on your perfectly tuned hondata setup. Of course the likelyhood of those things happening are not typical, but the cost and time savings could be worth the price of the J&S if it saves your engine.
Also, you don't need the v2 setup if your running hondata, you can proboblay find someone with a classic to buy which will probably save you a couple hundred.
well, if you have bad injectors and bad fuel delivery, not even the Almighty can save you from detonation. The J&S will only delay the inevitable....the consensus is that boosted stock ludes will need a rebuild within 6 months or a year. Are you willing to pay $700 for a few extra months?
well, if you have bad injectors and bad fuel delivery, not even the Almighty can save you from detonation. The J&S will only delay the inevitable....the consensus is that boosted stock ludes will need a rebuild within 6 months or a year. Are you willing to pay $700 for a few extra months?
Ok
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
well, i personally would prefer a well tuned car to a badly tuned car one with a j&s, but i would prefer a well tuned car with a j&s to both of those, hands down. the costs of rebuilding a motor are way up into the thousands of dollars (don't forget LABOR)...
700 bucks for j&s is nothing compared to that. standalones are great, but we're still talking about cars that were not designed to boost. a tank of bad gas or some other oddball condition and you're hosed.
as for your comment about people who "don't properly set up the JRSC," i don't think that's the case at all. my JRSC was installed and dyno tuned by very well known and experienced tuners, dozens and dozens of turbo'd and jrsc'd hondas and acuras under their belt. the problem was not with the installers or tuners.
Quote:
Originally posted by smoothludey
If detonation is the killer of all motors, then J&S is not the end-all answer. There are so many other ways to prevent detonation that are so much more cost effective and practical than a J&S. You can tune the fuel mixture and improve fuel delivery with aftermarket pumps/rails/fprs/injectors, retard the ignition timing, decrease the compression, or decrease the intake charge air. The J&S essentially plays with the fuel mixture and the ignition timing to avoid detonation, so my question is why pay $700 for something that good tuning on a Hondata and MSD ignition systems can accomplish? It would be more practical to upgrade to a standalone and the ignition in a FI system to begin with.
As for doing FI on Honda with internals that border on reliability under boost conditions...we are all dancing with the devil. I know most people who turbo their hondas never expect their motors to last as long as an NA setup, so a rebuild is something anticipated somewhere down the line. I understand that JRSC was SUPPOSED to be more reliable than a turbo setup, which was one of the reasons i contemplated a blower for my lude. However, it turns out that the JRSC wasn't as reliable as advertised and it doesn't surprise me that people who don't properly set up prelude JRSCs are blowing their motors, there just isn't anything to cool the intake charge air. The blower kits for civics and tegs more times than not come with at least an aftercooler. I'm currently running a turbo setup on my prelude with a stock motor, anticipating the worst now more so than ever after hearing all these horror stories. It's just not fair that we have to spend more money to get the same amount of power that other cars are pushing.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
one more thing. of the methods you listed, two are more expensive than the J&S - decrease the compression (means taking the head off for sure, possibly new internals, at the least a new headgasket) and decrease the intake charge air (intercoolers and the requisite plumbing are not cheap, if they're feasible at all depending on the situation.) a fuel rail isn't going to make a bit of difference in the 250whp range. pump and fpr is a given if we're talking about mechanically increasing fuel delivery. a bigger pump or "better" fpr won't make a difference. bigger injectors are the real solution to fuel delivery issues, but they open up another can of worms in terms of controlling them. "retard the ignition timing" is exactly what the j&s does, and it's particularly useful on the 5th gen because you can't adjust the timing at the distributor.
the j&s is not a substitute for adequate fuel delivery, so i don't see how you can say it would be better to get an aftermarket pump/rail/fpr/etc.
both timing and fuel need to be taken care of. the former can be nicely handled by the j&s, and i don't think $5-700 is unreasonable considering how much a lame BTC or BTM cost.
Quote:
Originally posted by smoothludey
If detonation is the killer of all motors, then J&S is not the end-all answer. There are so many other ways to prevent detonation that are so much more cost effective and practical than a J&S. You can tune the fuel mixture and improve fuel delivery with aftermarket pumps/rails/fprs/injectors, retard the ignition timing, decrease the compression, or decrease the intake charge air. The J&S essentially plays with the fuel mixture and the ignition timing to avoid detonation, so my question is why pay $700 for something that good tuning on a Hondata and MSD ignition systems can accomplish? It would be more practical to upgrade to a standalone and the ignition in a FI system to begin with.
As for doing FI on Honda with internals that border on reliability under boost conditions...we are all dancing with the devil. I know most people who turbo their hondas never expect their motors to last as long as an NA setup, so a rebuild is something anticipated somewhere down the line. I understand that JRSC was SUPPOSED to be more reliable than a turbo setup, which was one of the reasons i contemplated a blower for my lude. However, it turns out that the JRSC wasn't as reliable as advertised and it doesn't surprise me that people who don't properly set up prelude JRSCs are blowing their motors, there just isn't anything to cool the intake charge air. The blower kits for civics and tegs more times than not come with at least an aftercooler. I'm currently running a turbo setup on my prelude with a stock motor, anticipating the worst now more so than ever after hearing all these horror stories. It's just not fair that we have to spend more money to get the same amount of power that other cars are pushing.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
A proper set up for a JRSC would include (IMO), a dyno tuned fuel map set to avoid detonation under the harshest of conditions, an MSD ignition system that can retard timing per pound of boost, and a proper fuel setup ( more often than not the culprit behind most detonations). I don't know your setup Schwett, but all signs point to detonation in your motor. The cause of it, i can only guess it was high intake charge temps.
If your goal was lots of power, there's a chance that it was tuned aggressively and thus reliability suffered. If you want power and reliability, better have a big bank account to back it up cuz it's gonna get expensive.
