Hey guys, I thought this was too important a discovery not to share. I am hoping you will find this to be very bit as interesting as I have.
The long-understood need to resleeve your block has meant that people who want to run 7+ PSI had to pretty much do a full block build. This is of course a good thing, but only if you have the time to ship off your block to GE and another means of transportation in the meantime. That and the fact that you are boring away all of the neat FRM liner that Honda worked so hard to put there in the first place. Iron sleeves are nice, but FRM is better for heat conduction.
The reason, as most of us already know, is that forged aluminum pistons don't play nice with FRM-aluminum sleeves. Just ask crackhouse when you don't pay attention to that little rule. The solution that everyone seems to be handing out here is to switch the cyclinders to iron, which wears against alumnium just fine. Well, one of the things I wondered is : why not modify the pistons, instead of the sleeves?
My first thought was to coat the pistons in iron. I did some searching on the net, and a more optimal solution came up. There is a company that will coat your pistons (and, your head or cylinders if you want) in a special ceramic/metal compound. This material wears extremely well, and, from what I can tell, will run fine against stock aluminum-FRM sleeves. This procedure is also considerably cheaper than the prices I have seen for a GE buildup.
I don't want to post the name of the company yet, because I am not sure what PO.com's advertising policy is. If the admins will let me, I will gladly post the name of the company and a link to their web site. They have extensive information on the procedure on their site.
I see this as the killer mod for FI. I was willing to be the guinea pig on this engine build, but I have recently decided I am going to grad school, and can't afford to go FI (much less maintain it while I'm in school ). I would love to see someone try this, and I am willing to bet it will work in spades.
you can post it... share the knowledge.
We just don't want you to get free advertising if its your company.
Sites that advertise here pay a slight sponsor fee to help pay off the sites hefty monthly fees.
May I remind you that while it might solve the problems of those breaking ring lands, and just want to run 9 psi on some forged pistons, it won't help strengthen anything, which means possibilty of cracking cylinder walls etc running a higher boost. I would reccomend at least a block gaurd.
May I remind you that while it might solve the problems of those breaking ring lands, and just want to run 9 psi on some forged pistons, it won't help strengthen anything, which means possibilty of cracking cylinder walls etc running a higher boost. I would reccomend at least a block gaurd.
Your point is well taken.
However, I have heard that race companies claim an H22 is good for like 22 PSI (with the usual "with proper tuning" clause). I admit that from a point of ignorance, I would be a little surprised to see a block actually crack from boost. I have read Corky Bell's book, and he does prove that interial loading contributes the most to piston and rod death, not boost. Inertial load is proportional to RPM, not necessarily with torque.
I also realize that piston and rod loads are not the same as cylinder loads. But, Corky also proved that adding boost does not create dramatic differences in peak combustion force, just an increase in average combustion force. This means that forces in the combusion chamber aren't very different from NA combusion. If they are, then you have detonation, in which case you are screwed anyway.
I am beginning to ramble now, so I will shut up . I hope someone finds this useful.
However, I have heard that race companies claim an H22 is good for like 22 PSI (with the usual "with proper tuning" clause). I admit that from a point of ignorance, I would be a little surprised to see a block actually crack from boost. I have read Corky Bell's book, and he does prove that interial loading contributes the most to piston and rod death, not boost. Inertial load is proportional to RPM, not necessarily with torque.
I also realize that piston and rod loads are not the same as cylinder loads. But, Corky also proved that adding boost does not create dramatic differences in peak combustion force, just an increase in average combustion force. This means that forces in the combusion chamber aren't very different from NA combusion. If they are, then you have detonation, in which case you are screwed anyway.
I am beginning to ramble now, so I will shut up . I hope someone finds this useful.
you may be rambling but DAMN where did you learn all that!
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Like he said, he learned it from Corky Bells book.
Even though we don't have nikasil coated cylinders, Nikasil is still an option. There are companies out there that do aftermarket nikasil coating. Nikasil is the one of the best coatings and it's used on alot of professional racing engines.
__________________ DirtyLude
Mark Higgins
Toronto Prelude Club www.hondaprelude.to
one thing i find interesting is that the s2000 motor uses FRM sleeves... AND forged pistons. so what's up with that? i wonder if the pistons are "coated?"
Quote:
Originally posted by DirtyLude Like he said, he learned it from Corky Bells book.
Even though we don't have nikasil coated cylinders, Nikasil is still an option. There are companies out there that do aftermarket nikasil coating. Nikasil is the one of the best coatings and it's used on alot of professional racing engines.
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"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
one thing i find interesting is that the s2000 motor uses FRM sleeves... AND forged pistons. so what's up with that? i wonder if the pistons are "coated?"
That's a damn good question. I knew about the FRM sleeves (the 'Lude, the s2000, and the NSX all have this), but are you sure about the pistons? Does an N/A engine really need forged pistons? If anything, high output N/A needs stronger rods, not necessarily stronger pistons (see comment above).
Maybe we could ask an s2000 owner or a Honda dealer somewhere.
Since Maxpower's technology is patented, maybe Honda coats them with Iron. I have heard this is also possible, but in light of that cool ceramic coating, why choose the inferior solution (in our case)?
BTW schwett, you were a source of inspriation to me in wanting to go turbo . Your posts here and on H-T were first-rate. Keep up the good info .
This is the kind of thinking that is refered to as outside the box. I am very interested, but am also in search for more cash to advance to the next level. Please keep me posted.
The NSX and the s2000 has forged pistons with FRM liners. I found one reference to iron coating on the pistons, but that's about it. The inertial loading on the piston through the wrist pin breaks the piston so you need a stronger piston. The higher ringlands for emmisions also means you need stronger pistons.
Ha ha, Schwett. The way it sounds, your an inspiration for people not to get supercharged.
__________________ DirtyLude
Mark Higgins
Toronto Prelude Club www.hondaprelude.to
Originally posted by DirtyLude Ha ha, Schwett. The way it sounds, your an inspiration for people not to get supercharged.
__________________
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
I had my pistons ceramic coated. its good for transferring away heat. Ceramic coating slightly repels heat, which is good cuz you dont want "hot spots" on your pistons. I hope everyone knows to file down any sharp edges on their pistons too.
There's still issues with ceramic coating. There's still a chance of the ceramic cracking and developing hotspots on the pistons, increasing the chances of predetonation rather than decreasing it. Ceramic has a different expansion rate than alluminum, especially the low silicon aluminum used in forged pistons like JE's, so it's difficult to avoid the cracking. Ceramic coating has definite advantages, but I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who doesn't break open their engine every once in a while.
Companies like Swain giving guarentees against cracking, but I'm not sure how far that guarentee goes.
__________________ DirtyLude
Mark Higgins
Toronto Prelude Club www.hondaprelude.to
Originally posted by DirtyLude The NSX and the s2000 has forged pistons with FRM liners. I found one reference to iron coating on the pistons, but that's about it. The inertial loading on the piston through the wrist pin breaks the piston so you need a stronger piston. The higher ringlands for emmisions also means you need stronger pistons.
Ha ha, Schwett. The way it sounds, your an inspiration for people not to get supercharged.
I have a s2k shortblock that I got from a local dealer after an oil change issue (long story involving an oil change, forgetful kid, and oil starvation ). The pistons don't _look_ like there's any coating but that's obviously not a definitive test...I have a couple pics here:
I apologize for the horrid picture taking skills...a friend was responsible for taking the pics while I was away and her photography skills leave a lot to be desired.
Originally posted by DirtyLude There's still issues with ceramic coating. There's still a chance of the ceramic cracking and developing hotspots on the pistons, increasing the chances of predetonation rather than decreasing it. Ceramic has a different expansion rate than alluminum, especially the low silicon aluminum used in forged pistons like JE's, so it's difficult to avoid the cracking. Ceramic coating has definite advantages, but I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who doesn't break open their engine every once in a while.
Companies like Swain giving guarentees against cracking, but I'm not sure how far that guarentee goes.
I am a believer that if you allow your motor to warm up gradually, it wont result in any cracking. I sit and let my engine warm up to about 190 degrees before i even go anywhere. It may be a pain to sit there for 5 minutes, but its worth the safety factor. The only times cracking would be evident is if you hit boost with a cold motor. People have been ceramic coating pistons for years now with high success rates.
absolutely not. they are forged pistons, they will eat the sleeves like any other forged piston........
Quote:
Originally posted by Forbidden Aren't Endyn's Rollerwave pistons compatible with the FRM sleeves? Aren't these forged pistons too? If so that could be an alternative too...
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"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." R.I.P. Jerry Falwell.
You don't want aluminum rubbing against another aluminum surface. The alumium-steel combination is much better from an abrasion resistance stand point.
That's why iron coating is used on honda pistons used in alumium sleeves.
I agree that iron coating would reduce the abrasion resistance problems of forged pistons in aluminum sleeves but still, forged aluminum remains much harder than cast aluminum, resulting in a more aggressive contact with the sleeve...
Originally posted by 98turboSH People have been ceramic coating pistons for years now with high success rates.
Marcus
Actually the reason I didn't do it is because of the number of failures I've heard about. One shop owner was obsessively adamant that they never seemed to work. Whatever the case, a high success rate is not a perfect success rate and I'd rather not take any more chances than I have to. If my motor was a full race motor I'd do it in a second. In fact there's alot of engine coatings I would try.
__________________ DirtyLude
Mark Higgins
Toronto Prelude Club www.hondaprelude.to
). I would love to see someone try this, and I am willing to bet it will work in spades.
. I hope someone finds this useful.
. Your posts here and on H-T were first-rate. Keep up the good info 
). The pistons don't _look_ like there's any coating but that's obviously not a definitive test...I have a couple pics here: 
