Ok, I bought a '92 Prelude Si from a friend as he upgraded to a 2000. I currently have 215,000 miles on my engine (world record yet? ) but am swapping for a JDM H22A. For now I'm going to put all the mods on it I can and get her into the "new car" condition I want.
I've been seriously thinking about Turbocharging her, but have no clue what I need to do to the engine to properly suport it for everyday use. (Like someone said, I didnt know I was buying a hoby along with the car.) I understand the turbo kits to buy, but what need to be done "rebuilding" the engine? (can someone list the parts so i can price search and research.)
I apreciate ANYONE's time and help. I am new to moding cars (dont worry, I have professionals helping to build, but I havent gotten much info on the turbo from them.) Thanks!
P.S. Would apreciate any opinions for complete Turbo system and rebuild (part list)
Last edited by Artifex : 11-10-2007 at 12:42 PM.
Reason: Fixed title
Well the thing is, I'm new to "turbo" and boosting. I just want to be able to reach up into the 300 whp's. If I'm going to boost at all (just like everyone else, you want more as time goes on) I am going to start out right and just rebuild the engine. I would just assume that I might eventually try to put her to her limits. (not right away of course)
Thanks Ludster! (I read something about Iron Sleaving?)
Well the thing is, I'm new to "turbo" and boosting. I just want to be able to reach up into the 300 whp's. If I'm going to boost at all (just like everyone else, you want more as time goes on) I am going to start out right and just rebuild the engine. I would just assume that I might eventually try to put her to her limits. (not right away of course)
Thanks Ludster! (I read something about Iron Sleaving?)
Yea np , I'm still new to FI but i'll try mah best.
U need Iron or Ductile Sleeves if you plan to use forged pistons. The stock FRM sleeves wont work. Try searching Darton Sleeves or GE sleeves(Golden Eagle).
I would say u need forged pistons, rods, and sleeves. Maybe Balance and microPolish ur Crankshaft as far as bottom end.
Whats ur budget?
__________________
Socal - Darker Images
1993 Prelude SI
you don't NEED to build the engine to hit 300whp in a daily driven car.
But better to plan ahead now. Like ludester said, you would need to sleeve the block, forged rods, and forged pistons as a bare minimum build up. Try doing some searches to see what other people have done or plan on doing. Happy boosting!
someone should sticky a post at the top of this page for people who are new to forced induction. If you have basic questions do a "search".
Also dude if you are new to modding, and you don't know anything about turbo but you want to do it. First off, start reading, read tons of information everyday religiously. Research every part of a turbo kit and hit honda-tech alot. A ton of really good information is on that site. It took me 2 years of commited reading everyday to finaly commit to it. Second, it will get so ****ing expensive so unless your prepared to spend 10-15k then forget it. Turboing a honda is not for the faint of heart.
__________________ I WILL PWN YOU!!
Last edited by sharkcohen : 01-27-2005 at 12:36 PM.
Sweet! I apreciate the information Ludster! And as far as money.. sky's the limit pretty much. I've already figured in about $18k so far to fix her to how I want (engine swap, cam gears, pullys, catback, tie bars, springs, etc..). The $18k also include things such as new carpet, uphostry, tint, windsheild, body kit, paint, ruber moldings, body work. Plus I calculated in around $3,500 for JUST the Turbo kit later on. I figure another like $4k-$6k on top of that for the proper rebuild on the engine.
Ludetech, I apreciate the help! I've been trying to find as much info on Turbocharging as I can. I figured this would be a good place to read about it also, but to my disapointment, there's no "New to Turbo" threads. I find new things everyday here and there.
Thanks again EVERYONE for your help!
______________
George
U.S. Army Airborne Infantry --- "AirBorne!"
WOW, 18k you could throw in a lambo motor jk .
My bottom end is going to cost roughly 1800 give or take a few. I decided to go alittle higher compression pistons (10:1) so I wouldn't lose a lot of low end. The bad part is I would be able to boost as high.
If you're planning to boost a lot, I would say go wit low compression pistons like 9:4, 9:1. I would look into JE, Arias, or CP pistons. There should be a few companies to choose from for Rods, I have seen many ppl with Eagle Rods, Crower Billet Rods, or Manley.
I recommend sleeving ur block through Golden Eagle, There is a sponsor on Honda-Tech who does sleeving for around 900/Hd Sleeves, or 800/Econo Sleeves. You'll need to Hone and Bore or sleeves which would cost about 100 bucs more. Look for camp1320.com in the Sponsor Classified.
I searched for about a year to find out I wanted to go FI
-Randy
__________________
Socal - Darker Images
1993 Prelude SI
Second, it will get so ****ing expensive so unless your prepared to spend 10-15k then forget it.
That statement is kind of misleading... you will EVENTUALLY spend maybe $10-15k, but it won't be all at once, so the damage won't seem as bad since its not a one shot deal haha. But I've spent JUST over $10k including my buildup and parts that aren't necessary for a buildup. If I included only parts I needed for a reliable turbo setup, I will have spent around $8500. But thats also over a span of 2 years.
But I agree with ludetech that if you don't know what your doing, don't do it. If your not willing to deal with a car that won't start everyday (when your still dealing with tuning issues), or if you can't deal with tweaking with it everyday, then don't do it. But despite all that I still think its worth it.
I wrote this a few days ago when I was bored on preludepower in reply to a turbo post.. If anyone wants to expand on it and add in not just peicing a kit together but all the available kits on the market it'd be very usefull to all the noobers
Quote:
Originally Posted by myself
running a turbo and running a reliable turbo kit are two completely different things.
Alot of people cut corners with things such as fmu's, afc's, and cheap manifolds and parts that warrant more and more money to be invested into your setup. If you plan on selling your car soon go budget boost, because you will be causing detrimental damage to your engine internals.
When I first started researching turbo's I was about to take the plunge after about 6 months of research until I ran accross an article about tuning, afr, and timing. I wish I could find it because it scared the living **** out of me. Finding that balance between the most power and the most reliability is not cheap.
"budget boost = boom" in my book
This is how you build a reliable turbo kit to fit your needs and if you skip one of these steps it could be the end of your kit or worse, the end of your motor.
#1
First when you decide to build a turbo kit you want to
determine what your overall end goals will be. Personally I want around 500 whp on pump gas around 16-17 psi. after you have decided what your overall goals are then build the kit around that
#2
size your turbo
Now you want to size a turbo for your application, in my situation I figured an sc-61 would do the job well ( wish I would have bought a gt35r because of spool but oh well) and it will do just fine.
#3
Choose an exhaust to fit your power needs buf not exceed your desired desible level
( manifold, exhaust piping, downpipe, wastegate size etc)
In choosing your exhaust components you want to choose things that will work well together. If you decide you want big power it will benefit you well to choose an equal length manifold (lovefab, onefab, full race etc) over a log style (turbonetics, drag etc.) . Full race ran a test and showed an equal length manifold will wrap you around 40 more whp over a standard log style.
Now decide on wastegate size. a 38mm will do fine up to about 350whp I beleive and anything over that I would recommend a 40-44mm vband to keep boost creep to a minimum.
When choosing all your exhaust components this is a good time to decide wether or not you will need air conditioning. If you do need air conditioning then a log style with a smaller sized downpipe will be a better situation for you. If you do not need a/c than an equal length manifold will do you well although many of them require downsizing to a civic radiator so investing in a dual core with a slim fan, fan switch and thermostat are necesary to keep engine temps low and keep your motor reliable.
Now decide what size downpipe and exhuast you want based on how much power you want and how many modifications you are willing to do to get that large 3" dp and exhaust in there.
#4 choose your intercooler and ic piping and bov
choose and size an intercooler to fit your needs and intercooler piping. Personaly a chose a pwr 24x8x3 air to air intercooler because of its efficiency and ability to fit behind the stock bumper with a lil trimming of the front bumper support.
Now choose intercooler piping size. Personaly I ran with 2.5" because of the amount of power I want and the speed the air will be traveling in the intercooler piping. This will affect spool times and throttle response and if you go to small and the air velocity in the pipes is to high you will loose massive amounts over power. <- super complex I don't want to explain
Choose a bov
The easy part, pick one you like the sound of. Personaly I like the fluttery noise of the blitz dual drive so I went with that.
#5 choose an engine management system to fit your needs and around what your local tuners capabilities are.
AEM EMS, hondata, uberdata, autronic etc., e manage, there are plenty out there personaly I prefer hondata and uberdata( if you can find a tuner) and my favorite is the aem ems when tuned by torque freaks. They have the ability to make a car run like stock with the ems.. Personaly I want big power so I chose the aem ems for its versatility and endless possibilites and I also picked up a plx m300 wideband to add to the reliability of the kit,
#6 choose a fuel system
fuel pump, injectors, etc.
Many of your fuel components will need to be replaced when turboing to provide more fuel to your setup. Along with a larger map sensor if you decide to go with more than 12psi
#7 Determine wether to build motor
This is for those of you who want more than around 300whp and more than 7 lbs of boost. Personaly I want a **** load of power so I am having my bottom end built by dan benson and the head built and polished by portflow.
#8 Applying the power to the ground
When you build a turbo kit your stock clutch will not handle the new found power so you must upgrade. I am running a act xtss but I plan on upgrading to either a tilton multi disk carbon or a exedy multi disk but these clutches run into the uper echelons of around 2-3k$. These clutches allow for virtualy stock clutch feel and smooth engagement while still allowing for huge amounts of power and drivability. Also a good limited slip differential is not a bad idea to upgrade so your not just weeding your power away to one wheel. A good flyhweel is also beneficial in a turbo setup depending on where you want your power in the rpm spectrum and what drivability you are willing to sacrafice. I chose an exedy 9lb
This is just a brush on things. I could seriously go on for pages but I don't want to because its late :wink:.. The thing is that I personaly dont beleive reliable budget boost is possible unless you've built turbo kits or worked on plenty or owned a turbo honda and fought the difficulties related with one.
With that known, if you are a welder and a tuner with turbo honda experience you can build a turbo kit for pretty cheap :lol:
^^^This looks like a good start. keahsight also wants to contribute, and I encourage anyone with turbo experience to contribute. Tonight after work I will start a new thread with this info and sticky it.
Awesome post Ludetech! I've been searching for a post like this for a while. This gives me a new starting place on where to research my desires and what it takes to get it. (Like what RPM range I want, what 7psi boost is like compared to 12psi, etc. Plus I have no clue about tunning, which is another area to look into.)
May I make suggestions from a newb position on other information to be included in teh Sticky? I figure it's hard for someone to look back and find questions to answer when they already know so much.
Questions:
1. Difference in boost levels. (how much power/effect it gives)
2. Pro's and Con's of spooling at lower RPMs and Higher.
3. Fuel cost (If someone builds a turbo, how much should they be looking at to spend on gas per day? This I would think of as a "biggy" when considering the setup goal.)
4. Different Setups tried and tested and a description of their practical uses. (Like I read somewhere that you could put a smaller turbo in sequence with a large, so that you could spool quick with the small and then get teh power of the larger turbo when the smaller disengages.)
Um.. and I guess the last question (that's running through my mind) is what it takes to Tune the car. What are you tuning, how does it effect the car, etc. (Another big picture to look at.)
I hope I'm not sounding like someone who's trying to get all my answers the easy way! I'm just trying to share what I "dont know" so that perhaps a thread may be built by those of you who've been doing this for a while to help educate people like me.
Again, awesome thread and I *greatly* apreciate yoru time and work!
Questions:
1. Difference in boost levels. (how much power/effect it gives)
one misconseption is that all psi is created equal. Air density and air pressure are not the same measurement so 7psi on a smaller turbo will forsee less power than a larger turbo becuase of the volumes of air flowing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The GrRingo
2. Pro's and Con's of spooling at lower RPMs and Higher.
well in relation to a small turbo vs. a large turbo
quicker spool(small turbo)= more fun around town but worse gas milage and worse traction
slower spool(large turbo)= better traction more top end power but may seem gutless until turbo spools
Quote:
Originally Posted by The GrRingo
3. Fuel cost (If someone builds a turbo, how much should they be looking at to spend on gas per day? This I would think of as a "biggy" when considering the setup goal.)
depends on how you drive the car. If you drive in boost all the time gas will be expensive and your motor won't last as long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The GrRingo
4. Different Setups tried and tested and a description of their practical uses. (Like I read somewhere that you could put a smaller turbo in sequence with a large, so that you could spool quick with the small and then get teh power of the larger turbo when the smaller disengages.)
sequential turbo's are useless for 4 cylinder motors
Quote:
Originally Posted by The GrRingo
Um.. and I guess the last question (that's running through my mind) is what it takes to Tune the car. What are you tuning, how does it effect the car, etc. (Another big picture to look at.)
Your stock ecu is preprogrammed to not read and respond to positive air pressure. So when you turbo you put a pems(programable engine management system) on your car that you can modify things like ignition tables and fuel maps and also adjust for larger injectors and better components. When you tune a car you are adjusting ignition, fuel and timing for the optimal power and longevity of the car. It's easier to comprehend if you understand an internal combustion engine.
u dont need $18k for fully done.... pnp/build head/build bottom/custom kit/3" exhaust/hondata,EMS etc,/gauges,controller/tuning + installation labor.. everything brand new will prolly be $15000 so when ur ready to shop for toys.. do some research n keep ur eyes open for good deals.....do lots n lots of homework........ read all these pages if u got thats how n where i learn ALOT of my skillz from http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=316373 all h22-turbo related... so u cant miss a thing... if u got the problem someone ON PO OR HT have to had it one way or another...... if not hit this up.... http://honda-tech.com/zeroforum?id=16 ALL ur turbo needs.... hope this help.... n good luck... if u need more help skark,ludetech,keahsight,buh buh,me and alot more others on PO will/can help.... SEARCH is ur key.....
Before anyone can get into discussing anything about a turbocharger one needs to completely understand how one operates. For a great description of how a turbocharger works please read the following: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
Engine Build
Because everyone else and the above article did a great job covering a turbo set up and operation, I am going to skip straight to the engine build with particular attention to the H22.
1. Sleeving: (after machine work an average of $1,000)
A sleeve is the bored potion of the block in which the piston travels from BDC to TDC (bottom dead center to Top dead center). The sleeve also contains the explosion of the compressed fuel and air mixture. The sleeves in the H22 are FRM. When rebuilding a motor for boost one must put in forged pistons because of their increased tensile strength. A forged piston cannot travel against the wall of a FRM sleeve because it will flake the metal on the sleeve and cause massive problems. Because of this a cast iron sleeve must be installed in the block in order to handle the forged pistons.
The machine work for the sleeving includes completely disassembling the block and boring out the old sleeve material. The block is then stuck into a hot tank to clear it of any metal flakes and grime. The lip is then cut in the top to prevent the sleeve from sinking. The block is then heated to 323 degrees and the sleeve pressed in to place. This is done at the temperature so when the block is warm it will reduce the possibility of sinking. The block is then decked (made flat on top) and re-hot-tanked. The new sleeve is then bored and honed to the specs of the pistons that will travel within them.
There are several companies that do sleeve work, Golden Eagle, Darton and JG Engine Dynamics are the best. Golden Eagle does a closed deck conversion to our open deck block (4 sleeves linked together at the walls for increased strength and topped by a closed top) while Darton offers both a Full MID conversion and a cast iron sleeve kit. (open deck is 4 separate sleeves with a metal block cylinder wall for support in place of the wall of the other sleeve with an open top) A closed deck is structurally more strong so can hold more boost but the cooling efficiency is decreased due to the closed deck. The open deck can hold less boost but is more efficient at cooling. An open deck is good to about 24 pounds while a closed deck is good to 40+. Keep in mind preludes have made 300 wheels on 12 pounds of boost.
I went with Darton cast iron replacement sleeves as I think golden Eagle is over-priced. Also, Darton has a lip to prevent sinking while Golden Eagle does not.
2. Pistons (an average of $550)
In order to run more boost you will need to buy a set of forged pistons. In addition you will need a ring set, wrist pins and locks (to connect to the rod). The piston is the flat metal, round surface that compresses the fuel/air mixture and suffers the brunt of the explosion to create the power stroke. Some of the best companies that make pitons are CP, JE, Arias and Weisco. Select a bore size and compression ratio based off of a stock rod length and head gasket thickness.
A compression ratio is the amount the fuel/air mixture inside the cylinder is compressed. For example, our stock compression ratio is 10:1, compression is 10X or 10 atmospheres. When you lower compression ratio HP suffers as a result. In order to run more boost on PUMP GAS you need to lower the compression ratio to prevent dangerous engine conditions such as detonation, knock and running lean. For a rule of thumb: lower compression = more boost but less torque & longer lag time.
3. Rods (an average of $350.00)
Connecting Rods serve as the connection between the piston and the crank shaft. The rod must have enough tensile strength to bring the piston and entire force of the explosion to a complete stop 4 times for every rotation!! There are several companies to go with for rods and by far the most common is Golden Eagle H beam rods. They rock.
4. Extras ($600-800)
EVERYONE OVERLOOKS THIS WHEN ESTIMATING COST!!
So now you have the sleeving done, a block sitting in front of you and your pistons, rings and rods, so now what? Well, there is no point to build the engine and skip on the rest. The ENTIRE engine should be new! Main and Rod bearings need to be purchased. OEM Honda are the best. The set sells for 200. They come in ½’s and are color coded so check your block for which ones you need. You will also want to buy ALL NEW SEALS, GASKETS & BELTS. Use all OEM as Honda is the best. Head gasket kit (200), rear and main seal (80), timing belt, timing belt tensioner, auto tensioner (140), crank pulley belt, AC and PS belt (80)… Get the works. I cant stress enough … there is no point to build a motor only to have a weak point because you skipped on a 3 dollar seal!! You may also want to get a water pump and oil pump (300 for both) for peace of mind so you know everything is new and you don’t have any hidden costs later. The engine is out so DO IT ALL CORRECTLY!
P.S. Also do a new clutch
5. Head work (??)
Now your block is all together so what about your head? Machine work you will want to do at a minimum is a hot tank, valve job and resurface. Whether want to change the valves, springs, retainers, cams or get a port and polish is all up to you. I would change springs and retainers, leave the stock valves and cams and get a port and polish. This cost me around 800.
6. The process of the R&R, Build and drop ($1500.00)
So now you have all your parts and you want to go about the build. First, take your time to piece all your parts together and make SURE you have EVERYTHING before you start the build process. Interview several builders and choose one you trust as your engine is in their hands. I would also ask about a guarantee as very few will guarantee their engines in case some thing goes wrong. Go with one that does. An engine R&R (remove and replace) should run around $600-1,000. A build should run anywhere from $400-600. Have a rental on the side as your car will be out of commission a minimum of 2 weeks. Count on 1 day for a pull, 1 day for a tear down , 1 ½ weeks for machine work, 1 day for a build, 1 day for reinstallation and 1 day for the start process.
7. Stand Alone Engine Management System ($500-1,400)
Because you have completely altered your engine the stock ECU (or piggy-back) can no longer handle controlling your engine. You will need to buy a new engine management control system. The two most popular are Hondata and AEM PEMS. Hondata is less expensive, more user friendly but offers less control than the AEM system. You will also need to buy extras for data logging, a wiring harness etc. AEM PEMS is amazing … trust me. It can control everything … and I mean everything. It is very pricey and difficult to use but is by far the most complete system out. You do not need to buy any extras as it includes everything from a boost controller to being able to do gear dependant boost sampled at every 50 RPM. What ever system you go with make sure you spend the money to have it TUNED, TESTED and TUNED AGAIN! In addition to the hardware be prepared to spend anywhere from $300-1000 for a good tune. Save all your maps before you make changes so if you have something go wrong all the time is not wasted. remember, A "BULLETPROOF" ENGINE CAN EASILY BE BLOWN ON LOW BOOST WITHOUT TUNING!! TUNING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART!!
8. Turbo extras
Turbo timer: Because a Turbo operates off of exhaust it reaches a very high operating temperature. This means it needs to cool down. Oil is the life blood of a turbo so cutting off its supply before it has had a sufficient time to cool can cause irreparable damage to it. A turbo timer allows the car to idle and maintain oil pressure after the key has been removed for a designated period of time in order to allow the oil to sufficiently cool the turbo and prevent damage. This is essential.
Boost Controller: A waste-gate protects against over-boost. Because it operates of off a spring that opens to let off excess pressure to keep the turbo at a preset level, in order to increase boost you need to bypass this system. A boost controller is needed to effectively bypass this and increase boost. The best stand alone boost controller is the APEXi which sells for around 400. If you go with the AEM EMS this is offered as an integral part. You will only need to purchase a boost controller solenoid and wiring harness to make it work … well and understand the most complicated tuning tool ever created.
Blow Off Valve: A Blow off valve (BOV) operates off of vacuum and releases the compressed air from the turbo when the butterfly valve closes. This relieves stress on you engine and IM. It also helps the turbo to maintain its spool so after the shift it can spool more quickly/efficiently. HKS and Greddy are the common ones. I can vouch for the HKS SSQV, it rocks.
Gauges: A boost gauge is a must. Other options for second gauge are Exhaust Temperature (which is good for those in the hotter areas of the country), an oil pressure gauge (my personal recommendation and a great way to watch when the engine is warmed up and to monitor oil pressure/life-blood to the turbo for spikes under high boost) and various fuel gauges.
I hope that answers any questions about an engine build. If you have any questions feel free to post em’ up and I will try to answer them the best I can.
PS: I ROCK!
The site HowStuffWorks.com is an awesome site for learning MANY things. I actually used that for learning about Turbo, internal combustion, ignition, etc., prior to searching the web for other information and finally ended up hear.
Ludetech and Keahistight, those are the 2 best posts I have read on the entire internet! Now all I have to do is figure out what setup to go with to reach my goal. (I'm going to build to start off with aroud 7psi boost.)
Thanks again Everyone! Awesome thread!
George
P.S. The $18k I guesstimated was for engine swap and other N/A mods along with body work and interior reconstruction. (I'm going as far as replacing window seals and maybe even the glass.) $7k Engine, $4k Suspension, $4k Exterior, $2k Interior.
) but am swapping for a JDM H22A. For now I'm going to put all the mods on it I can and get her into the "new car" condition I want.
, I'm still new to FI but i'll try mah best.
I find new things everyday here and there.
jk . 
