I just purchased a PMS for my 2000 SH. It was a used system from a 96 Civic, so I'm waiting for a new harness and a set of 440's. If anyone here is running this setup, I would really appreciate some tips for setting it up. I am going to install my jrsc (6lbs) as soon as I get the harness and injectors. Am I wrong to assume I will not need any of the jr electronics or fuel stuff? Also, it comes with a 2 bar map sensor... will I need to run a check valve or anything? I don't have a tuner around here with any experience with the PMS and I've never tuned, so any tips to get started would be great.
I think that you will be very happy with the PMS. I know that our moderator schwett, who has run this setup with his 9 psi pulley, was happy with it. Personally, I would suggest 550 cc injectors, as they would allow you to run the stock fuel pressure (stock pump, stock regulator). With the 550's you would also be able to do away with the JR RFPR. With the 440's you will need some way of bumping up the fuel pressure a bit. I am not sure what you would need. The PMS will replace all the JR electronics. You will need to somehow prevent the stock ecu from seeing boost. A check valve would be good for this, although I would recommend investing in a J&S UltraSafeGuard V2. You would not only benefit from its MAP limiter, but also have some detonation prevention. I also highly recommend that if your PMS is not coming with it you purchase the windows software for the unit so that you can run it in full standalone mode and tune everything from a laptop.
I presently am preparing a similar setup for my lude, except I will be running the 550's and the stock fuel pressure. I am also considering forgoing dyno tuning and instead purchasing a wideband O2 sensor setup and tuning the car myself. I figure with tuning being $180 an hour, and that it will take a long time to tune the setup from scratch, that by the time it is tuned I could have bought a wideband and done it myself. We will see.
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Originally posted by gju614 I just purchased a PMS for my 2000 SH. It was a used system from a 96 Civic, so I'm waiting for a new harness and a set of 440's. If anyone here is running this setup, I would really appreciate some tips for setting it up. I am going to install my jrsc (6lbs) as soon as I get the harness and injectors. Am I wrong to assume I will not need any of the jr electronics or fuel stuff? Also, it comes with a 2 bar map sensor... will I need to run a check valve or anything? I don't have a tuner around here with any experience with the PMS and I've never tuned, so any tips to get started would be great.
Thanks
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Last edited by sharkcohen : 09-11-2002 at 03:12 PM.
Hey thanks for the reply. I do have a resistor box lying around, because I wanted to change to p&h injectors but thought that 440's would do the job. I didn't know 440's wouldn't allow for stock fuel pressure.. thanks for the tip. The unit is coming with the InteracQ, but I did have to get a new harness. As far as standalone mode... I don't think I'll be doing that, I want to keep the ATTTS functioning. Are there any kind of base maps available?
Originally posted by gju614 Hey thanks for the reply. I do have a resistor box lying around, because I wanted to change to p&h injectors but thought that 440's would do the job. I didn't know 440's wouldn't allow for stock fuel pressure.. thanks for the tip. The unit is coming with the InteracQ, but I did have to get a new harness. As far as standalone mode... I don't think I'll be doing that, I want to keep the ATTTS functioning. Are there any kind of base maps available?
ATTS will function just fine when running the PMS in standalone mode. The difference in "standalone" mode is that instead of modifying the outputs for fuel and ignition from the ecu, the PMS throws the outputs out entirely, allowing the user to program in one's own fuel and ignition outputs. All other functions of the stock ecu are retained, including the signals between the ecu and the ATTS control unit.
As far as basemaps, I know of none. If I have my setup tuned by a tuner (DSR in San Jose is the plan), I am hoping they will be able to use the information in a Hondata basemap as a basis for building the basemap for my PMS. That would certainly save on tuning time.
Originally posted by sharkcohen As far as basemaps, I know of none.
Actually if I'm not mistaken, I believe schwett mentioned that PMS systems ordered from Jim at Motorvations Motorsports (wheelking@webtv.net) would include Jim's "base map" of sorts that would be able to work on a Prelude. I don't know how much help it was for schwett, though. Maybe we should let him reply?
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Originally posted by gju614 Once again, Thanks Sharkcohen!!! I figured it would disable the ATTS like all the other standalones. I am starting to like this setup even more now.
Now you know why it's the popular choice for Automatic and Type SH Preludes!
Originally posted by iranman Actually if I'm not mistaken, I believe schwett mentioned that PMS systems ordered from Jim at Motorvations Motorsports (wheelking@webtv.net) would include Jim's "base map" of sorts that would be able to work on a Prelude. I don't know how much help it was for schwett, though. Maybe we should let him reply?
Cool tip, I am going to email Jim at MM about that. Thanks, iranman
i don't really see the point to "standalone" mode, assuming you reset the ecu once in a while and are satisfied with the frequency of adjustment points available in the normal mode.
put simply, the stock ECU is pretty smart, and i would prefer to simply "add" functionality to it rather than throw it out completely. the PMS is a very simple system. your injectors are 50% bigger than stock, so you pull 34% of the fuel off boost, then tell it to add back XX% for each pound of boost. adding back slightly less up top because preludes tend to run rich up top. then you tell it to pull XX degrees of timing per pound of boost, again, more at the midrange and down low and less up top, and call it a day. you can fine tune the closed loop values (the 34%) per throttle and rpm, if you feel the need, by monitoring your trim values while cruising at various throttle positions and engine speeds.
still, the windows software is extremely nice to have. i used the controller for a first whack, because it's small and easy, but it does not give you fine enough adjustment for really careful full throttle tuning.
so, to answer the question, all the "base map" needs to be is entering -34% for all the narrow throttle settings in the handheld controller. (2000, 4000, 6000, 8000, low, mid, hi throttle.) the car will start and drive just fine, as long as you stay out of boost. i had mine cruising around almost like stock in less than 15 minutes.
Hey Thanks schwett!!! I'll start with that and go from there. I've been watching your project over the past year on this board, mostly because you have seem to have some serious knowledge about tuning and also one of the few members here who didn't want to lose their ATTS. Between you and iranman I've learned a lot. Just one more thing... Not to disrespect Sharkcohen ( I respect his opinion too ), but just to clarify. If I went with the 440's, will I need something to help with the fuel pressure? I'm only asking because I thought that with a hondata setup you didn't need to and maybe the PMS would be similar. While I'm at it... what options do I have to prevent the stock ecu from seeing boost?
Originally posted by gju614 Not to disrespect Sharkcohen ( I respect his opinion too ), but just to clarify. If I went with the 440's, will I need something to help with the fuel pressure? I'm only asking because I thought that with a hondata setup you didn't need to and maybe the PMS would be similar. While I'm at it... what options do I have to prevent the stock ecu from seeing boost?
No disrespect perceived Although I do try to help, there are those, especially iranman and schwett, that are much more knowledgeable than me on the subject of FI. Anyway, the reason I say you will need a higher fuel pressure is that on the Hondata website in their chart of basemaps they state that a lude JRSC setup with 440 cc injectors requires a fuel pressure of 50 psi. The topic of using 440's with Hondata and the JRSC came up recently in another thread and you may find it useful:
since the stock atmospheric fuel pressure (assuming no pump) is in the mid 40s, and since the stock fpr rises at 1:1, you will be in the low 50psi range with 6psi of boost and a totally stock fuel setup. also, because the jrsc tends to have plenty of fuel up top and not enough in the midrange, with the pms or other standalone you can actually lengthen the injector pulse in the middle (i.e. you can ADD to the stock signal) rather than the vafc method of increasing the fuel pressure (and then pulling fuel up top) to get a reasonable midrange.
the stock computer will never hold the injectors open longer than what would result in a ±90% duty cycle at 7600rpm; this means that at 3800rpm you could actually DOUBLE the amount of fuel simply by extending the pulse. i don't know if that would really work (there must be other issues with valve timing and so on) but i increased my midrange by about 10% relative to the top end, and it works great. much better than running a high fuel pressure and pulling fuel up top to flatten that curve.
all that said, it would be nice to be able to adjust the fuel pressure in case you are lean for some reason - things don't always work out the way they theoretically should. while i would not recommend getting a fuel rail and fpr, i would recommend the b&m kit. it is simple, cheap, and lets you adjust the pressure enough to have a significant impact. on the other hand, you have to saw your stock regulator in half.
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Originally posted by sharkcohen
No disrespect perceived Although I do try to help, there are those, especially iranman and schwett, that are much more knowledgeable than me on the subject of FI. Anyway, the reason I say you will need a higher fuel pressure is that on the Hondata website in their chart of basemaps they state that a lude JRSC setup with 440 cc injectors requires a fuel pressure of 50 psi. The topic of using 440's with Hondata and the JRSC came up recently in another thread and you may find it useful:
THANK YOU to ALL. FYI... Just to let anyone know who might go with the PMS system... I bought one used, it came out of a 96' Civic , so I emailed efisystems.com for a Prelude harness. I just received an email back from them and they informed me that I will not need one... the 96' - 99' Civic and 2000SH are the same.
I've given this some thought and I have become convinced to agree that "adjustment" mode is the better way to go. It seems to me that it will cut down the tuning time and therefore the tuning cost. I originally wanted to go with "standalone" mode so that I would not have to fuss with resetting the ecu. Looks like I will be doing the OBDII workaround now while I'm working under the dash.
schwett, were you referring to the 440 injectors when you mentioned 34%? If so, how did you conclude that 34% was a good figure to go with? If 34% is for the 440's, I'm going to need to figure how much to pull for 550's.
Hopefully, I'm going to have everything installed two weekends from now.
sorry shark, i accidentally edited your post instead of replying to it!!! i put it back.
moderator error - lol.
what i was going to say in reply :
440 * .66 = 290.
100 - 34 = 66.
for 550s, 47% would seem to be the place to start. you will know immediately if it's too much or too little by your datalogger; if it's too much, the long term trim will go positive, if it's too little, it'll go negative. watching the short term trim will tell you as well, but it's a bit less specific. i'd suggest using the handheld controller to approximate settings for idle and part, keeping it the same at all rpm settings. the handheld controller is very fast to make changes with, although it is a little kludgy looking.
once you get the car driving around normally out of boost with the 550s (should take you all of 10 minutes), throw in a retard per psi value, a fuel enrichment per psi value, and dip into the boost if you like. it should be quite driveable. then take it to a dyno.
schwett, a question on the accessory port: when I program it for a given rpm and throttle position, it does not activate until both values are satifsied, correct? As you did, I'm going to use it for vtec engagement, and I was planning on setting it at 3500 rpm (initially, we'll see what makes good power) and 30% throttle, and I want to make sure that it is not going to activate at 30% throttle when 3500 rpm has not yet been reached.
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Last edited by sharkcohen : 09-27-2002 at 01:06 AM.
Originally posted by sharkcohen schwett, a question on the accessory port: when I program it for a given rpm and throttle position, it does not activate until both values are satifsied, correct? As you did, I'm going to use it for vtec engagement, and I was planning on setting it at 3500 rpm (initially, we'll see what makes good power) and 30% throttle, and I want to make sure that it is not going to activate at 30% throttle when 3500 rpm has not yet been reached.
schwett, you only hooked up the vtec solenoid wire and did not mess with the vtec oil pressure switch wire, correct? Still no issues with the oil pressure being too low and throwing a MIL? Also, what have you set your vtec engagement at?
i did not screw with the oil pressure switch; no MILs for that. i have it at 4100.
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Originally posted by sharkcohen schwett, you only hooked up the vtec solenoid wire and did not mess with the vtec oil pressure switch wire, correct? Still no issues with the oil pressure being too low and throwing a MIL? Also, what have you set your vtec engagement at?
Hey since you brought it up... How do you wire it up to control the vtec engagement? I know I'm going to use one of the aux. wires, but do I just tap into the soleniod wire or do I have to rewire things so it doesn't get triggered by the factory ecu?
Originally posted by gju614 Hey since you brought it up... How do you wire it up to control the vtec engagement? I know I'm going to use one of the aux. wires, but do I just tap into the soleniod wire or do I have to rewire things so it doesn't get triggered by the factory ecu?
FYI... Just to let anyone know who might go with the PMS system... I bought one used, it came out of a 96' Civic , so I emailed efisystems.com for a Prelude harness. I just received an email back from them and they informed me that I will not need one... the 96' - 99' Civic and 2000SH are the same. 
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