Vincent Bly's STS Prelude Ground Control spring rates - Honda Prelude Forum

aklucsarits · 01-01-2003, 12:41 PM

Vincent Bly, a verteran autoXer on the National Tour, is selling his STS 93 Prelude VTEC. And he is now divulging many details of his "secret" Prelude autoX setup. This car is basically prepped to the max of STS rules. The suspension is complete with Shocktec double adjustable remote resevior shocks that likely cost him at least $1000 per corner. The interesting part to me is that Bly's spring rates on his Ground Controls are only 350lbs/in front and 375 lbs/in rear. This seems somewhat low to me - especially if you consider that he is running big $$$ custom valved dampers that could have been set to handle MUCH higher rates. He is also running front and rear Neuspeed swaybars - which should also affect his spring rate choice. From what I understand, this car was not a daily driver. So comfort was not a consideration. What do you think would be the rationale behind the seemingly low rates he chose?

The main reason I am bringing this up is because I am doing research and trying to decide what spring rates to get for my Ground Controls when I order them in the next few weeks. This is for my STS 2000 Prelude. They will be going over off-the-shelf Koni Sports - which depending on who you listen to, are valved to be suitable for up to 400lbs/in to 450lbs/in springs. I run the stock front and rear sway bars, and I do not intend to change them. Right now, I am leaning towards 425lbs/in up front and 375lbs/in (maybe 400?) in the rear.

Any input is appreciated.

Andrew

Mugenlude · 01-02-2003, 11:44 AM

WOW, that does seem low... I'd like to get to the bottom of this too because I will be upgrading to GC's before the start of the season.... Where did you find his setup? Maybe we can just contact him directly...

71dsp · 01-02-2003, 12:03 PM

The spring rate might be low, but what kind of damping rates was he running? If the damper is super stiff, it makes the car feel as if it's running on stiff springs.

Jacques · 01-02-2003, 02:03 PM

Wow, Bly's setup is kinda soft. As Billy said though, damping rates may be really stiff, so stiffer GC spring rates might not be needed. It was also interesting that his spring rates were higher in the rear vs. the front.

NammyBoy · 01-02-2003, 02:16 PM

I found that with the TEIN Type-HA suspension, my car could not absorb road imperfections so easily and during hard cornering bumps on the road would interrupt the stability of the car. Since you said that Vince's car is for autocrossing only, my guess is that he chose softer rates to accomodate the not-so-smooth parking lots where a lot of events are run.

I'm more surprised that he is using a Neuspeed front bar. A lot of people like to have greater roll stiffness in the rear so that the car can rotate better (I find that oversteer is easier to control than understeer). Given that, I'm surprised that he doesn't run even higher rear rates.

My two cents.

~Nam

gLudeous · 01-02-2003, 03:59 PM

I raced in the same region as Vince and I will confirm that the surfaces of some of the lots are terrible. I also remember him saying it took forever to get the damping and everything right, it's possible he's still not satisfied with it if he's selling it. But I don't really know.

Mugenlude · 01-02-2003, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jacques
Wow, Bly's setup is kinda soft. As Billy said though, damping rates may be really stiff, so stiffer GC spring rates might not be needed. It was also interesting that his spring rates were higher in the rear vs. the front.

From what I see most track cars run higher spring rates in the rear in lieu of large rear sway bars, but he seems to have both --> so this would allow him to run the front sway bar too.... just a thought...

Jacques · 01-02-2003, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mugenlude
From what I see most track cars run higher spring rates in the rear in lieu of large rear sway bars, but he seems to have both --> so this would allow him to run the front sway bar too.... just a thought...

But, since I plan to get the Progress adjustable rear sway, but keep the front sway stock, should it truly benefit me to get higher spring rates in the rear? The rear as it stands is 380lbs.

vwong · 01-02-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NammyBoy
(I find that oversteer is easier to control than understeer).

This isn't true for probably 90% of the population!

vwong · 01-02-2003, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jacques
It was also interesting that his spring rates were higher in the rear vs. the front.

I think back in the summer, I said that I would not go with higher spring rates in the rear than the front on a street driven car. But somewhere in between, WINNING is my priority.

So I'm starting to change. I have 3 different spring combos that I have in mind that I may go with sometime this year (I currently have 12 kg/mm front, 10 kg/mm rear).

1. 12 kg/mm front and rear
2. 12 kg/mm front, 14 kg/mm rear
3. 10 kg/mm front, 12 kg/mm rear

I'm heading toward the stiffer rear springs route.

NammyBoy · 01-02-2003, 05:20 PM

LOL, I'm personally thinking about putting in 12 kg/mm front 15 kg/mm rear when it comes time to revalve my struts (yes, I know a lot of people say it isn't necessary).

After a track day at Willow Springs, I found that under hard braking, the rear likes to come loose. Even when I brake in a straight line, the rear gets squirrely and wants to come around. This may be because I have a disproportionately large rear anti-sway bar (i.e. the rear springs are too soft for the bar). Given that, I think that you need to match your bar according to your spring rate: higher spring rate, stiffer bar--not allow the bar to substitute for lower spring rate (if anything I think it should be the other way around).

~Nam

vwong · 01-02-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NammyBoy
15 kg/mm rear

Unless you go with maybe Eibach ERS or other JDM brands, TEIN doesn't make 15kg/mm springs. They don't make any "odd" rates pass 10kg/mm.

Mugenlude · 01-03-2003, 10:58 AM

I still haven't settled on the spring rates I'm going to use (GC's), but I'm leaning toward 450 lbs/in. front and rear...

aklucsarits · 01-03-2003, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mugenlude
I still haven't settled on the spring rates I'm going to use (GC's), but I'm leaning toward 450 lbs/in. front and rear...

Are those going over off-the-shelf Konis? And what sway bar(s) are you using?

Andrew

NammyBoy · 01-03-2003, 01:23 PM

I think they are able to handle up to 400 to 450 lbs/in. We'll see about that now, won't we?

If I were in your shoes, I'd try 300 front and 400 rear, and use the Neuspeed 25mm rear bar (stock front, of course).

~Nam

Mugenlude · 01-03-2003, 02:20 PM

Yes, they are off-the-shelf APS Koni's (Neuspeed version). Right now I am running the ST Rear Sway Bar.

I will be running this setup....

Front Tires - 215/45/16 Azenis on 16x7.5 (K1's mostlikely, I still need to get wheels this winter)
Rear Tires - 205/50/15 Azenis on 15x6.5 Subzero's
Ground Controls (need to determine rates)
normal array of strut bars

I think I'm going to get some better rotation with the new tire sizes (I was running 205's all around in the past). I'm still up in the air regarding whether I want to go with the Progress Rear Sway bar. Currently I'm running my rear shocks at full stiff, so if the rear desides to rotate too much I can dial some understeer back into it, or I can adjust the rear sway ---> another option is a larger front sway...

NammyBoy · 01-03-2003, 04:25 PM

Why the 15 inch in the rear? Different wheels, too? Now that will look very odd, indeed. Why not just 215/45ZR16 Azenis on K1's all around? And look for other ways of getting better rotation... like 300f/400r and even the Progress sway bar, though as I said before, it seems like my 8kg/mm rear springs have a hard time keeping up with the bar. I'm more interested in the spherical endlink conversion... I wonder if it'll work with your ST rear sway.

I've got the standard rates on my TEIN Type-HA coilovers with the Progress bar, and I'm not happy with the rear rates at all. I wish I had specified the spring rates when I ordered the coilovers ... looking back now, I would get 12f/16r or something to that effect...

~Nam

Jacques · 01-03-2003, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NammyBoy
I think they are able to handle up to 400 to 450 lbs/in.

They should...both ludikris and I have Ground Controls that are 450lbs in the front, using off-the-shelf Konis (GC version). I've competed with my current setup for about a year and a half. I was contemplating higher rates in the rear (currently 380lbs), but due to the adjustability of the Progressive rear sway, I may hold off on it.

Mugenlude · 01-03-2003, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NammyBoy
Why the 15 inch in the rear? Different wheels, too? Now that will look very odd, indeed. Why not just 215/45ZR16 Azenis on K1's all around? And look for other ways of getting better rotation... like 300f/400r and even the Progress sway bar, though as I said before, it seems like my 8kg/mm rear springs have a hard time keeping up with the bar. I'm more interested in the spherical endlink conversion... I wonder if it'll work with your ST rear sway.

I've got the standard rates on my TEIN Type-HA coilovers with the Progress bar, and I'm not happy with the rear rates at all. I wish I had specified the spring rates when I ordered the coilovers ... looking back now, I would get 12f/16r or something to that effect...

~Nam

Well, kind of a long story --- but I'm not doing anything...

Last year I purchased a set of 15" Subzero's and 205/50 Azenis. I raced about 12 events and normal daily driving (4 months) on them and they are getting worn down. It was a great setup for the money, but the time has come to move on. I want to get some wider tires for the front, so I got a deal on a set of 215/45/16's from PilotSH. Now I'm going to purchase (2) 16x7.5 K1's so I can run the 16's on the front. I can't see spending the money for (4) K1's when I only really need them on the front (I have too much understeer the way it is). I also can't see wasting the rubber of the 215/45's on the rear of the car. So I'm going to run the 16's on the front, when they wear out I'll put the other 2 on the wheels. This will save me money on wheels and maybe even the purchase of the Progress bar. Also, I'm not going to get what I want for the 15's w/ Azenis so I might as well use them.

I have considered the Progress bar, but why spend the money if the car is already rotating well? Still up in the air about the Progress bar...

BTW- I could care less if the car looks funny because this is just an auto-X setup... I much rather have a faster time...

Jacques- what rate would you have gotten on the rear if you had it to do again? Do you have a rear sway bar?

Jacques · 01-03-2003, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mugenlude

Jacques- what rate would you have gotten on the rear if you had it to do again? Do you have a rear sway bar?

Maybe a hair higher than it is now...425lbs, if GC made that size. But, since I'm getting the Progress bar in the next couple of months (only a stock bar at the moment), I'm going to see how it feels if I stiffen the rear. It might compensate for the current spring rates.

On a separate note, I might try to make a trip or two up to Chi-town for next season. We are having trouble in our region securing one of our event sites, which may lessen our event schedule for the year. I may be making some trips to Springfield, MO, and Lawrenceville, IL. My goal is to run in Nationals.