Ok guys this year i am looking to do alot to the lude I got my money in a whole lot of places but i want to invest some into the suspension. Right now i am riding on stock dampeners with neuspeed sport springs. I bought the car like this so i don't know the difference between stock and my aftermarket set up. I have been doing my homework on this subject but I am still uncertain and I have many questions. The teins are good money but are they worth it? I was thinking about other options like the
1. KONI / GC combo
2. Tein flex or better
3. Function & Form I
4. K Sport
5. Whomever else you guys can recommend.
All you suspension guys hit me up. I do plan on using this car as a moderate daily driver. I will be going to the track as well maybe auto x and drag. I don't mind putting down the bread. But I want good stuff for an agressive driver.
Its been my experience that the JDM Packaged setups are in general, underdamped for the springrate they use. In other words, there is barely enough shock or not enough shock valving for the off the shelf springs that come with them. In general, if you are looking for something off the shelf(i.e. not custom built), the Koni/GC setup is the way to go. You may have seen some of us mention having the Koni's revalved for higher springrates, and you can order them direct from Koni, just mention you want the RACE version of the Sport Yellows when you call. They sell the SPSS-revalved Yellows off the shelf now. This will enable you to run pretty much any springrate you want within reason(1100lbs or so, which would be punishing on a daily). If you go with the off the shelf valving, a 450f/550r setup would be good.
I daily drove on 650's all around on revalved shocks and it was liveable. Its usually the shock that decides how driveable the springrate is. If you have enough shock valving to manage the spring, you can run the shocks soft for DD and it isnt horrible. This all depends on your perspective though, by comparison, those Neuspeed Sports are roughly 210lbs at their stiffest(they are progressive rate springs).
They're both going to say the same thing... GC/Koni and possibly getting a used set of Koni's with the intension to rebuild. The bottom line is that you're not going to find an off the shelf shock that works better. All these JDM shocks have pretty weak dampening curves.
Exactly how much "bread" are we talking about here?
If you're on a budget, I'd go with Koni shocks with the Ground Control sleeves. Drive them until you think the Konis need to be rebuilt, then rebuild them for more aggressive rates. On new Konis 450 lb/in F&R is a good setup. You're talking about $1k for this setup.
If you want to spend a little more money to get something a little more track worthy, I'd find a set of used Konis and send them off to get rebuilt to SPSS3 specs. Then buy a Ground Control kit with somewhere around 550 to 650 lb/in spring rates, or whatever you think you can handle. You're looking at around $1,200 to $1,300 for this, depending on the price of the Koni shocks.
If you want to get a little better shock travel, you can have the Koni rebuild shop shorten the bodies and shock shafts, but that's going to run you $75 to $100 per shock. For that kind of money, I'd seriously consider the Koni 3011. The 3011 is a custom made, true race shock, so I wouldn't expect it to last as long as a street shock, but you'd be hard pressed to get the Koni Sports to work as well as a 3011 on the track. The 3011s used to run about $450 per shock, but with the recent price increase, I'm not sure of the cost. With these shocks, you'll get threaded sleeves and spring perches for 2.5" ID springs. You'll have to figure out something for the top hats. If you go this route, I could make some adapters for you that will allow you to use 2.5" ID springs with the stock top hats.
You could also go with the type of setup that we did on DR's car. It's a 3011 shock set with eyelet upper mounts. I fabricated the mounts for the car that allowed use of the Koni eyelets. Problem is, the adjustment knobs are hard to get to. Other than that, they work like stock. Even better than stock since the spring pivots along with the shock so they stay in alignment.
One item to note is that the 3011 is rebound and compression adjustable, as well. The OTS Koni Sports will be rebound only adjustable. The conversion for the Sports to double adjustable, isn't worth the cost IMO.
If you're curious as to what I'm running, I'm running a Koni 2812LB. It's an aluminum bodied shock (as apposed to the steel bodied 3011), and the threads are machined directly into the shock body. I'm not 100% sure I like this configuration, as the threads are hard to repair if they're damaged. With the 3011, you just replace the threaded sleeve. Easy! The 2812s are lighter, but not by much. However you can run a 2.25" ID spring with the 2812s, which allows for a slightly more compact spring package. The 2812s are also a race shock, and I have no idea how well they'd work on a street car.
Cost for a 2812 setup is was $745 per shock. With the price increase, it has jumped to an astounding $900 per shock! That's in the price realm of Penske, JRZ, Moton, and the like. Moton is an uber shock. I'd certainly run them if I had the $10k for their uber suspension setup. :drool:
If it were me, and I was on a budget, I'd go the used Koni rebuild route, or the 3011s if you have the money. I got a hell of a deal on the 2812s, that's why I run them. And if anyone is curious, I have run almost all of the combinations listed above: Neuspeed Konis with GCs, Rebuilt Konis with GCs, 3011s with Honda type upper mounts, and finally 2812's with the eyelet upper mounts.
3011 eyelet mount on left, 3011 with Honda type mount on right:
2812 eyelet mount on left, 3011 with Honda type mount on right:
As for springs, you really can't go wrong with Eibach, H&R, or Hypercoil. I use Hypercoil with H&R helpers on my setup. David used Eibachs.
I think I just about have my suspension figured out. It worked great at the event this weekend.
Billy, there are a few places where you can get the Konis pre-valved with the SPSS-3 setup and also pre-shortened. The places that have them are priced pretty good.
Are you thinking of the 8041 Race series shocks? If not, where and what model? Not TrueChoice, as they're friggin expensive, but they do have race packages with the Koni Sports. Koni doesn't offer the race series Sports for the Prelude. They offer the pre-shorted and race valved shocks for the Civic, Integra, etc. for about $1,050, IIRC. Prelude isn't an application offered, though.
Are you thinking of the 8041 Race series shocks? If not, where and what model? Not TrueChoice, as they're friggin expensive, but they do have race packages with the Koni Sports. Koni doesn't offer the race series Sports for the Prelude. They offer the pre-shorted and race valved shocks for the Civic, Integra, etc. for about $1,050, IIRC. Prelude isn't an application offered, though.
No, they make factory-new SPSS-3 shocks, but of course I didn't think to check if they do the Prelude ones like that. Last time I was checking suspension stuff, it was for the hatchback.
AFAIK, the only factory new shortened and SPSS3 shocks are for the Civic, Del Sol, Integra, et al, since they use the same shock. They aren't available for the Prelude or Accord. These are the new 8041-RACE series shocks. From what I've been told by Lee at Koni (about 6 months ago), any other place offering revalved shocks must revalve them at the shop selling them, as Koni doesn't offer any other factory "fresh" revalved/shortened Honda shocks. e.g. TrueChoice, they buy the plain OTS Konis and revalve/shorten/DA convert the shocks in house and sell them as a package, hence the $2k price tag for their best offering.
- don't expect standard-valved Konis to do more than about 350 lbs/in. Anything more than that, and even dialed up at full stiff, and they can't cope. The ride will be bouncy and start to feel like Neuspeed race springs on OE shocks (****ty).
- 350 lbs/in is as stiff as you want to go if you like the stock ride. If you are concerned about being too stiff or harsh I can pretty well guarantee that anything stiffer will be too stiff.
- 450 to 650 lbs is as far as you want to go and stay streetable. I'd stay to the low end of this. 650 is still acceptable by hard-core standards but bordering on dangerous unless you drive on the autobahn every day. Potholes and rain become a bad enemy. If you really prefer a stiff ride and don't drive in inclement weather or on ****ty roads, 650s are probably OK.
- > 650 is ****ing painful on the street IMHO. I would not recommend it for a street car.
- anecdotal evidence: damping is everything. My 95 Civic, with 350F & 450R and stock-valved Konis (considering curb weight, would be like a Prelude with 450/550), the ride was super stiff. That feeling of stiffness comes in LARGE part from the dampers.
- keep in mind the rest of the setup. My Civic had NO sway bar on the back and the 350/450 was a nice setup that allowed slight, controllable rear end rotation with zero toe. An aftermarket swaybar would have made it scary to drive in low traction conditions. The LSD in it probably helped rotation as well. I prefer an equal-rate set of springs F/R on the Prelude, but I've also never had one with an aftermarket rear sway. I also like the car set with what looks like zero rake F/R (car sits level).
- Finally... for a budget setup I would suggest buying Koni yellows, having them revalved if you can, and get a set of Tom's or Dropzone coilovers. Pick something like the 88-91 CRX/Civic, 92-95 Civic, or 88-93 Accord if you want light spring rates. The kits will all work on Prelude shocks. I still have some perch eliminators left if you are interested in them. This is as cheap as you can get unless you find someone selling everything used. REVALVE THE KONIS TO MATCH YOUR SPRING RATES if at all possible. If not, stay with under 400#/in. The rears will tolerate 450s no problem (since there is little weight/loading back there) but the front shocks will bottom easily and rebound a lot and make for a bouncy ride much over 350.
As pininfarina put it, Koni + GC FTMFW.
Drive a few peoples cars, or at least ride along. With all the members on the board I'm sure you can find some people that would be willing to let you check their cars out.
Todd and Billy you guys are the best. i really appreciate the time you guys spent in putting down your knowledge on this for me. You guys have been a tremendous help. I will have to look more into this whole revalving thing and if you guys have the patience in the future to deal with my somewhat nub ish questions that will be good as well. I know I will have a lot more to ask in due time. I wish the damn search was working properly but hey thats another issue.
Btw for my neuspeed sports on stock dampeners the ride is not at all bouncy. They work fine I just want to get something different that can be adjusted when i want.
Again guys I want to thank you all that includes everyone on this board a little knowledge can go a long way.
Todd and Billy you guys are the best. i really appreciate the time you guys spent in putting down your knowledge on this for me. You guys have been a tremendous help. I will have to look more into this whole revalving thing and if you guys have the patience in the future to deal with my somewhat nub ish questions that will be good as well. I know I will have a lot more to ask in due time. I wish the damn search was working properly but hey thats another issue.
Btw for my neuspeed sports on stock dampeners the ride is not at all bouncy. They work fine I just want to get something different that can be adjusted when i want.
Again guys I want to thank you all.
Keep in mind that when you adjust the ride height you should have an alignment done. If you plan to change the ride height and not re-align the car you are going to ruin tires like they are going out of style.
Also, what are your plan for the car? Are you racing it, show car, looking for an aggressive looking stance?
As nice as some of the shock setups that Billy listed above are, most are WAY overkill for 97% of the people. You are talking about some serious shocks that require more attention than the Koni Sports would. For instance, I would say that less than 15% of the serious autocross cars that race nationally have a setup that compares to the 3011's. Not to say they aren't good, because they are... just in a extreme way.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, buy shocks to meet your needs, if you want adjustable height you're going to use the same type of springs with all of the setups. If this is your daily driver or weekend racer you don't need high end shocks, you are probably wasting your money. Now if you are building a purpose built racecar (autocross or road racing), then go for it. The fact that you didn't ask about either of those in your original post I don't get that feeling.
fastkill, you should also thank the other people who have contributed.
Mugenlude is right, Billy's custom setups are up around the best of the best, certainly better than anything that's ever been run by someone on this board, maybe as good as stuff that's been racing at the national level on televised events. If you are pretty happy with what you have now, you can probably go with 450s on standard Konis and not feel like it's too bouncy, and be satisfied with the extra handling.
Mugenlude is right on the alignment, though making equal ride height adjustments should keep the alignment even side-to-side, and changing the camber will require a camber kit and that's a whole other thread to start (lots of options with their own pros and cons).
IMHO I've lowered lots of Preludes and while the cars may go through tires faster, they generally only handle better. I'd have to look at the geometry again to see if but IIRC the F and R toe-out increases with lowering. Generally improves turn-in as well as rotation.
I am on 450s f/r on stock koni yellows. My ride feels fine, but then again, I haven't driven another car with a lower spring rate or re-valved shocks.
I've been going about 2 years on my setup now and the Konis were used previously.
I really like the way my car feels, and makes it a blast to drive. I thank Billy for recommending me going the Koni/GC combo, I was almost dead set on Teins.
Koni/GC's also give you the most flexibility for anything you do in the future. i.e. change spring rates or re-valve shocks
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1998 Honda Prelude Type SH - SOLD
2002 Honda S2000
IMHO, OTS Konis are a bit underdamped for track/autocross use. It's too bad they don't offer the 8041-RACE series for the Prelude. That would be the ideal combo, and affordable as well.
Do you guys have any recommendations on like how many degrees to put the Prelude within when going in for an alignment? Like a somewhat aggressive alignment with a good treadwear?
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They offer the pre-shorted and race valved shocks for the Civic, Integra, etc. for about $1,050, IIRC. Prelude isn't an application offered, though.
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