It seems most of the strut bar threads I found pertain to fitment, design, or bling. That and people just selling them back and forth constantly. What I'm wondering about is the actual effect on driving they have, particularly autoX and road racing.
Currently, I have some cheapo no name rear strut bar on my new setup, and I'm wondering the impact of it all.
The new setup consist of the following...
Ground Control 400F / 600R
SPSS1 Koni Yellows
Progress Rear Swaybar
Stock Front Swaybar
Cheapo Rear Strutbar
I drove around a few days without the rear strut bar, and then threw it back on a few hours ago to see there if there was going to be any noticable difference. I'd like to say that there are less sqeaks and noises back there. It may just be my imagination, but it feels like it drives differently, somehow. I currently have no front strut bar installed.
I had some cheap strut bar on the front, but sold it, since it was so weak and puney. The guy I bought my exhaust from years ago sold both front and rear strut bars to me for about 50 bucks. I think the brand is Autotechnica, something like that.
I actually just bought a neuspeed front bar from a po.com member, and it should be here tomorrow, so that's why I'm wondering about the following questions.
So, with a stiffer setup that most of you guys admittedly have, how do strut bars affect performance in road racing and autoX?
Specifically, do they change oversteer/understeer characteristics at all?
Would oversteer/understeer be favored if one were to run just a front or just a rear strutbar?
What disatvantages/benefits would one have running just a front or just a rear bar?
Or would you even tell be able to tell a difference?
Is it all about steering response and/or slightly better turn in?
What is the main reason people buy these things?
Of course, the answer are going to be subjective depending on each unique setup, but I'm just trying to get a general idea.
Also, would there be much of a benefit to upgrade to a better rear strut bar?
If so, who makes a decent rear strut bar other than Spoon?
So, with a stiffer setup that most of you guys admittedly have, how do strut bars affect performance in road racing and autoX?
-In theory, they're supposed to prevent chassis flex due to cornering forces. personally i think they do dick, because i doubt that a strut bar is going to negate all chassis deflection, which is very small in the first place. Weld in a cage and seam weld the chassis, and maybe you'll feel a difference. People say they "Feel" a difference at turn in, which to me sounds like the butt dyno, but who am i to argue with feel? The fundamental problem with strut bars is that it is very difficult to quantify the difference they make in a dynamic situation--data collection would have to be fairly sophisticated, so until there's an answer, which i doubt there will ever be, it's like a religious war.
Specifically, do they change oversteer/understeer characteristics at all?
-I seriously doubt that they affect handling balance. With so many other, more important factors at play, namely tires, springs, swaybars, weight--the moving parts of the suspension/drivetrain would play a much bigger role, a more significant and easily tunable role in what a car's handling characterstics are like.
Or would you even tell be able to tell a difference?
-Nope. Well, i can't. A friend's GSR w/ and w/o the stock front strut bar feels exactly the same at an a/x or track.
Is it all about steering response and/or slightly better turn in?
-That's where people seem to be most passionate about defending these things. However, if they were actually working, they'd feel a difference midcorner too.
What is the main reason people buy these things?
-not sure. because they run out of other things to buy? These things, c-pillar bars, and pretty much any "bar" or "brace" that isn't a part of the suspension is a waste of money. Some of the X bracing i've seen in some people's cars...my god, you could run a dry cleaners out of a EG hatch. I mean, if you got money to roll J's in and smoke, why not? unfortunately, not many of us have this privelege.
I only FEEL like I felt any difference installing the front lower tie bar. Seems to of helped steering turn in IMO. The rest.... if any, is very marginal. Maybe the rear upper but that's about it.
The reason why people buy these things are they're cheap, plain and simple. Probably one fo the first mods I did to the car since I got it cheap and you think you're doing something w/ it.
My Neuspeed front shock tower bar was my first mod in '98 so I have to keep it for nostalgia sake. It is pretty light and I figure it can't hurt and it might help lesson some of the chassis fatigue that happens over the years. I don't think it changes my handling one bit and I doubt a rear shock tower bar would either.
Now a cage will change your handling a lot. I could tell a huge difference from going from nothing. to a autopower cage, and then another jump when I went to the welded in cage.
__________________ David Rierson
Marcucci Motorsports
98 Prelude #53 NASA Honda Challenge
03 Acura RSX
04 Nissan Armada
06 Kawasaki KLX250S
Quicker turn-in and more oversteer. The Prelude is already an easy car to drive at the limit because it communicates what it is doing so well. A cage just makes it that much more easy, especially in the faster corners.
__________________ David Rierson
Marcucci Motorsports
98 Prelude #53 NASA Honda Challenge
03 Acura RSX
04 Nissan Armada
06 Kawasaki KLX250S
Like TimeRacer, I didn't feel a dilly with any bar except for the front lower brace. I've tracked both with and without it and I seriously think it's not just in my head. I wouldn't know how to explain it either....
that diagram/discussion is for a car with mc pherson struts, or a load bearing strut tower. the shock towers in our car are unloaded, since we've got double-a-arms.
in a strut suspension car, i think they'd help more than they do in ours.
That article describes the effects of of strut tower car on a car with a strut suspension. Preludes do not have struts. We have double wishbones all around.
A strut suspenion uses the strut itself as both damper and a structural loadbearing suspension component. The weight of that corner of the car is all being borne by that strut. The strut is what holds the car up, and the damper itself is technically inside the strut. Then that strut in turn, puts a full weight load of that corner on the strut tower. On a strut car, a strut tower bar is pretty useful for reducing the flexing of the strut tower under load by tying the motion of the two strut towers togther.
But in a double wishbone suspension, the damper is not a a structural loadbearing suspension component. The damper is just a shock absorber, not a strut. In a double wishbone, the part that actually supports the majority of the weight of the car are the A-arms, which transmit that load mostly laterally (as opposed to vertically with a strut). So on a double wishbone car, the forces that are exerted on the shock tower are substantially less than what you would see on a strut car. AND even if the double wishbone car DID exhibit shock tower flex, it would still not affect the motion arc of the suspension like it would on a car with struts.
So in other words, a strut tower bar is useful on a car that has struts, but on a double wishbone design, it does little good.
Edit: Dammit! After typing all that out, I just realized that monk3y already said the exact same thing. In 3 sentences.
Andrew
__________________
2007 MINI Pooper S
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX SE
2000 Honda S2000
1992 Nissan Sentra SE-R
Last edited by aklucsarits; 08-18-2005 at 12:06 PM.
well, i don't know about racing (except entrance ramps, backroads, etc.)
i have had my 99' since new. this is what i have done to it:
koni sports w/ h&r sport springs
added dc sports rear under tie bar
added tanabe front strut bar
added tanabe rear strut bar
changed to tein SS coilovers
added tanabe frint under tie bar
when i added the fr. & rear upper bars. i noticed that the steering reacted quicker and seemed more precise. when i added the dc bar, i didn't really notice anything (looks cool). i did seem to notice more than anything, when i added the tanabe front under tie bar. it just seemes like the steering was more connected.
i had to sell some some stuff to pay bills. i just took off the fr. & rear strut bars and front under tie bar. i noticed a difference immediately. the car seems more relaxed. it seems like you notice more of the road irregularies with the bars on. the steering is not as connected.
IMO they dont do much, but since I spent the cash on them and like DR said they are pretty light I leave them on the car. Definetely not going to effect handling balance. Even if they do increase turn-in feel, I guarantee you will get 10x more of that feel out of say an extra half degree of negative camber. They look nice, and probably do add to the structural rigidity of the topmounts, but not necessarily creating a measurable performance benefit.
The only bar I noticed anything with was my Neuspeed Front Strut Bar. I noticed when I put it on, and I noticed when I took it off. Turn-in was more precise and quicker.
Notice nothing with my Spoon rear bar, or DC lower tie bar.
With my STS Civic I can't really tell the difference on an autocross course with my cheap e-bay sturt bar (it came with the car). Not sure how a solid Neuspeed bar would change that though. The car is different though, it seems as if the chassis is stiffer than the Prelude (stock in both cases).
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