Hey guys, I made a spherical bearing radius rod kit for my 5th gen (base). they should also fit the 4th gen preludes. I'm using this set on my race car. I wanted to test the waters to see if it would be worth my time in having 10 to 20 sets made up by a machine shop.
....thus my question is who would be interested in having these for their prelude with a price of about $120 (free shipping in US)?
They work great under hard braking, you will have less darting around, they also help wheel hop a bit from a standing start. The bearings can be easily replaced if they wear out. You can see from the pic above a hard poly bushing will help eliminate some (not all) of the unwanted deflection, because they can't make the poly too stiff or it will cause the suspension to bind up. A spherical bearing will have near zero unwanted deflection, and have zero resistance to the needed suspension motion.
I'd be interested if you sold it for less without the spherical bearings or hardware.
Also what size spherical bearing are you using? M12? The retaining lip for the spherical bearing looks like it can be a little larger in ID, and it looks like it needs to be chamfered to allow the maximum amount of misalignment without binding.
What's the OD of the spherical bearing carrier? Is it made to fit tightly in the subframe? I found that 2.4" works just about perfect. The side facing the subframe of the two pieces would have to be chamfered to fit perfectly, as the subframe has a slight fillet to it.
Sorry for all the questions, but I have a design that I've done that's very similar, but I made it to fit tightly in the subframe, and it uses M12 spherical bearings. So if your design is similar and I can use the spherical bearings I've already sourced, I'll buy a set rather than make a prototype of mine (for now, at least).
The adapter does not fit "tight" into to the sockets in the front supframe, thus the chamfer is not needed. The stainless steel bolts hold it in place so a tight fit is not needed. The OD of the sperical bearing carrier is 2.3inch.
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The retaining lip for the spherical bearing looks like it can be a little larger in ID, and it looks like it needs to be chamfered to allow the maximum amount of misalignment without binding.
The one in that pic is the prototype. I'm going to remove the springs and shocks this weekend to see if the radius rod hits the retaining lip under full droop and compression. If it does I will take some more off on the lathe. I want as much there as I can get away with to spred the forces out over the plate.
Walter, M12 is the size, like a bolt. e.g. a 12mm bolt with a 1.25 thread pitch is a M12x1.25 bolt.
I have a set of Aurora COM M12T spherical bearings here already. Hence, I don't need any spherical bearings, provided the OD and thickness of the race is the same (which it sounds like it is).
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Originally Posted by MRW
The adapter does not fit "tight" into to the sockets in the front supframe, thus the chamfer is not needed. The stainless steel bolts hold it in place so a tight fit is not needed. The OD of the sperical bearing carrier is 2.3inch.
I've wrestled with this for some time. I'm wondering just how much the bearing carrier moves around because there's really nothing solid holding it into place. The bolts aren't an interference fit, so I'd imagine there would be just a little room for the carrier to move around. If you could put 30 ft*lbs on the mounting bolts, I'd say they would be very secure, but from the looks of your hardware, there's no way those bolts will take that much torque.
I'd be more inclined to use AN4 bolts for the mounting. I do like that you use 5 bolts instead of 4.
I've thought about the idea of machining a lip to positively align the carrier to the subframe, but I'm not sure there is enough clearance to do that. Hell, I'd be inclined to weld the carrier to the subframe if I could get the torch down in there!
By the way, which side of the subframe are you mounting these on?
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Originally Posted by MRW
The one in that pic is the prototype. I'm going to remove the springs and shocks this weekend to see if the radius rod hits the retaining lip under full droop and compression. If it does I will take some more off on the lathe. I want as much there as I can get away with to spred the forces out over the plate.
Understood. If you want to make it that thick and that small, I'd chamfer it, just to be sure that there won't be any binding.
Don't get me wrong, those pieces look great. Almost as good as my aluminum prototypes.
One thing I would really like is if you made something that had a dust boot for the bearing, so it would live longer on a street car.
$120 is nice, but I'm not schooled on spherical bearings.
I will defer to Billy, but I want to ensure I'd be getting good quality and durability.
The ones from Tom will fit a Prelude, but the bolt holes are in such a small circle that you can't get a hole through the subframe. What you have to do is notch ID of the subframe hole to mount the spherical bearing carrier pieces. Hopefully Walter's mounting bolts are in a larger circle so that you can get some "meat" on the inner side of the mounting bolt holes.
Forget about the dust boot. The bearing should last for at least a year on a street car. You can get dust boots for spherical bearings, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you want, get some 1/2" spherical bearing dust boots and call it a day.
As for the bearings he uses, they're very good quality. I use Aurora or NMB bearings. Aurora is more readily available, and a good bit cheaper. I originally used an NMB bearing in my prototype shock mounts, but I'm actually running Aurora's in the car now.
One thing I'd suggest is using an COM M12T spherical bearing. The teflon lined spherical bearings aren't as "free" as the non-lined, but they never have to be lubricated.
Also Tom includes those nifty caster adjustment spacers and nuts. I have a set of his, just for that hardware. I just wish the carriers fit better. With Walter's setup, I'd just cut the stock spacers and use shims to set caster. If you have access to a lathe, chamfer the edges of the stock spacer to eliminate the possibility of binding. If you don't have a lathe, send them to me, and I can chamfer them for you.
The ones from Tom will fit a Prelude, but the bolt holes are in such a small circle that you can't get a hole through the subframe. What you have to do is notch ID of the subframe hole to mount the spherical bearing carrier pieces. Hopefully Walter's mounting bolts are in a larger circle so that you can get some "meat" on the inner side of the mounting bolt holes.
This is correct. Tom's fit but they are a bit too small, because they were made for the CRX. Mine are bigger and will fit the prelude better with a larger diameter. I will take some pictures of them side by side some time soon.
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Forget about the dust boot. The bearing should last for at least a year on a street car. You can get dust boots for spherical bearings, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you want, get some 1/2" spherical bearing dust boots and call it a day.
Actually I plan on using some fine woven plastic foam type stuff. It will keep dust out but not absorb water, yet it’s very squishy as to not cause problems with movement. O.. and some nice stainless steel spacers so you don't have to cut your stock ones, and can use them to adjust caster.
The ones from Tom will fit a Prelude, but the bolt holes are in such a small circle that you can't get a hole through the subframe. What you have to do is notch ID of the subframe hole to mount the spherical bearing carrier pieces. Hopefully Walter's mounting bolts are in a larger circle so that you can get some "meat" on the inner side of the mounting bolt holes.
I don't understand Billy, did you put yours in differently then mine? I had no issues with any clearances. I centered it up, drilled 4 holes and mounted them, I have no binding..
I didn't say anything about binding with Tom's pieces, Corey.
There are also no clearance issues.
I'll draw a picture when I get home. It's hard to explain in words. There are 4 bolts in Tom's design. Those bolts are in a circle around the spherical bearing. The pass through hole in the 5Gen subframe is large enough that you can't really drill 4 holes for the bolts on Tom's spherical bearing carriers. You have to cut notches instead of holes because the holes are too close to the pass through hole in the subframe. Make sense?
I didn't say anything about binding with Tom's pieces, Corey.
There are also no clearance issues.
I'll draw a picture when I get home. It's hard to explain in words. There are 4 bolts in Tom's design. Those bolts are in a circle around the spherical bearing. The pass through hole in the 5Gen subframe is large enough that you can't really drill 4 holes for the bolts on Tom's spherical bearing carriers. You have to cut notches instead of holes because the holes are too close to the pass through hole in the subframe. Make sense?
Oh, yes.. I wonder why its different from the 4th gen, I thought it was the same subframe to be honest, maybe not..
Update!
I should have these ready in 3 to 4 weeks. The machine shop is working on them right now. I made some small changes (for the better). They use 10mm hex bolts, with 10mm hex lock nuts, and I put an angle on the inside of the center hole for better range of motion. I installed the prototype on my car, took the springs and shocks off and was able to move the suspension from full droop to max compression (upper A-arm hit the inside of the shock tower), with no binding of the sperical bushing.
As you can see from the pic below the 5 mounting holes are in a much better location than with the SBMS unit, for 5th gen preludes.
I have more info and pics on my web sight (link below), click in the news with date 12-28-05.
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e.g. a 12mm bolt with a 1.25 thread pitch is a M12x1.25 bolt.
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