What other cars are the prelude competitive with on an autocross?
On one hand in the novice class I see other cars like a 350z or a C5 corvette posting slower times--Its the driver I know but looking at other classes I'd get smoked by a focus. How do I choose my class in the SCCA and modify my prelude to be the most competitve vehicle it can be? Is keeping pace with miata's a pipe dream? I keep pouring money into my car because I love the Prelude for what it is, but realistically it has its limitations. Is it really about how much money I care to pour into this hobby and stay within the rules of the SCCA? Is there a particular class inwhich the prelude is a good choice of car to run in?
Is there a particular class inwhich the prelude is a good choice of car to run in?
The hard truth: NO. The Prelude isn't capable of winning any autocross class it is currently placed in. It's heavier than it's would be competition and that is it's main downfall. It also has a not so common tire size so it is tough to find tires that are wide enough in the really grippy models, and are not overwhelmed by the extra weight. And models that are heavier usually have more HP and/or AWD or RWD.
A lot of us cut our teeth autocrossing in a Prelude. Most have moved on, including me. That's not to say it's not a fun car to autocross. I still like autocrossing my lude. I just know that if a competent driver in a well prepped Neon, Civic, 2.5RS, even a 2.2 Impreza shows up they are gonna beat me.
I should also note, that in autocrossing there tends to be one to two "cars to have" in the class. That is just the way it works out. To try to regulate better parity in all the classes would require a lot more involvement from the SCCA and constant "competition adjustments" like what is done in World Challenge road racing. That just adds cost and complexity to the sport and everyone becomes a whiner wanting this, that, less weight, etc...
__________________ Paul
2009 Mazdaspeed3 | 1995 Miata | 1999 Crystal Blue Base - bought 6/13/02, sold 3/11/09
Well, if you are in Novice class right now you could be racing against ANY car. Novice class is typically a handicapped class (based on the PAX Index Factor - this factor is Solo's way of 'leveling the playing field'). You take your time and multiple it by the PAX factor, your competitors do the same with their times based on their class. Here is a link to the PAX Index.
At this point there is no 'good' class for the Prelude to be competitive in. However, until you have a lot of experience your Prelude isn't going to be the deciding factor in your finish, it's going to be your driving. So drive what you got until you get better, once you start becoming consistent then you can start looking into making car changes. If you aren't consistent you aren't going to be able judge if your changes to the car were good or bad.
I ran my Prelude a couple year until I was beating decent people in better prepared cars. Actually, learning to drive the heavier Prelude really helped me learn to be smooth because when you drive a heavy FWD car you pretty much need to be smooth. When I ended up moving to a car that is harder to drive it really helped.
Thanks this is all great advice, I've run my setup for 4 events now and I'm getting pretty comfortable with its limits as to when its going to plow or when its going to stick. I've never heard of the PAX factor but I'll look into that to see where I really stand. I like to think that I'm average driver, I'm yet to get a real stomping outside of my very first time driving an autocross course and thinking about trying my hand in the Street Touring class, the times seem to be slightly faster than my times which will encourage me to perform better but not faster to the point where I won't be even close.
How do you guys think the prelude would fair against another FWD car like an RSX?
I noticed being smooth in the prelude REALLY helps times at this event I was far from smooth and with only 4 shots at the track there wasn't much time to learn.
I have a hard time with corners that have a fast entry speed and a tight cornering radius. I'm not sure which way I should be driving. For example on a hair pin turn should I be taking the longer line and going wide, but keeping a higher exit speed or cutting in on a shorter line but slower corner exit speed?
And what about a tripple Apex corner? Do I keep wide off the Apexes or hug them?
I have a hard time with corners that have a fast entry speed and a tight cornering radius. I'm not sure which way I should be driving. For example on a hair pin turn should I be taking the longer line and going wide, but keeping a higher exit speed or cutting in on a shorter line but slower corner exit speed?
And what about a tripple Apex corner? Do I keep wide off the Apexes or hug them?
The kind of questions you are asking tell me that you should go to an Evolution autocross school. The things you are asking about are a;; covered in Phase 1 classes.
For a "tightening radius" turn you need to give it up in the beginning some so you are not going to fast and push at the end part. You can go in a little hot and scrub off speed as you corner but doing this well is something that takes practice.
Any corner that is tight, and I consider tight turns anything where you are below 3500 in 2nd in the Prelude, you ALWAYS want to take the tighter line. You gain more going a shorter distance than you do by taking a "Faster" wider line. It's not really faster.
Another thing you should be doing is "late apexing". This is especially true if there is a straight after the turn. Late apexing lets you get on the gas sooner. Essentially late apexing means you 1) turn in later than you normally would 2) slow down and take a tighter line than you normally would 3) in doing this you will hit the inside edge of the turn later, and you will be going straighter at this point aso you can ge getting back on the gas.
If the turn is followed directly by another turn you have to think about how to set up for the next turn in deciding whether to late apex it.
Another thing you want to try is trail braking. As you know you should brake at the last minute and brake hard. As you start turning into a turn, ease off the brake in one fluid motion. Ideally you should start coming off the brake as you start turning the wheel and you should be off the brake as you reach your ultimate steering wheel angle. This puts load on the front and helps it grip.
Besides the Evo school you should pick up Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry A. Watts. He explains this stuff a lot better than I can. Plus the book has diagrams.
And I think the RSX is slightly faster. But it would be easy to outdrive the other driver and beat them.
__________________ Paul
2009 Mazdaspeed3 | 1995 Miata | 1999 Crystal Blue Base - bought 6/13/02, sold 3/11/09
Yup, I talk to myself when I'm "in the zone". When I'm fully concentrated, I'm telling myself where to look, where to turn in, where the line is, what my my throttle, or brake input should be... etc etc. Anything that helps me focus.
I usually focus on the engine's song, this way I can tell about what RPM I am at without glancing down at the cluster. I also try to look 3 cones ahead to see where to put the car. Another thing that goes through my ticker tape is how much gas to give it, because I'm generally indecisive, when give the car more gas, I usually have to "Feel" the car and if its going to give way and plow some days the car sticks really good other days its like a bar of soap I guess it depends on how big my balls are at the time. Other than that I'm on the gas all the way up until the last moment.
Our next event is on the 11th in about two weeks. In the mean time I'm going to ditch my ST front SB for the stock one to see how things go. Everyone has said that the ST front SB promotes understeer although I've found that it was just peachy. But on the other hand I hadn't tried the car w/o one.
I honestly don't listen to the engine at all. What RPM you are at is not something you need to know. Ever. If in a tight turn on your first run you feel slow out of the corner, the next run you downshift.
Otherwise, its throttle modulation: if adding a tiny amount of throttle makes your car push wide then you back of a smidge to tuck the nose, and maintain that cornering attitude.
Braking late and throwing the car into the corner is the #1 way to induce understeer. Also there is no cushion for error. As paulyg stated there has to be a balance.
I brake late, then turn the wheel as the car shifts its weight I ease my foot onto the pedal to find a good speed that I can maintain thru the turns then I goose it all the way on the exit. I try to find the gear that I want to be in before the entire corner or corners if its a series of tight corners I don't want to shift gears in the middle of them and make my RPMS drop and shift the weight of the car.
I'm going to take some time to read those tips you linked so I can apply them to my next time out.
I usually go with my friends who have Integras, they originally got me out to an auto x last year, and since then its been a friendly rivalary. The whooped on me my first time out but its yet to happen since.
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