ludestarbai

Okay guys.

First of all.

Today, I picked up a 93 Vtec Prelude... 5spd.

Car is in excellent shape as far as I can tell except for one big problem.

The car doesn't seem to like first gear. Sometimes.

Its VERY difficult to get into first gear sometimes, of course full clutch in. about 90% of the time you've gotta force it and I mean shove the **** out of it to get into first gear, and its very hard to pull out of first gear without it feeling like its going to die.

Other times and I can't figure out what triggers the 'other times' it works just fine, pulls out of 1st gear okay and shifts in and out of it okay.

The even weirder part is that sometimes first gear is as smooth as butter.

Thats what I dont get? sometimes its fine, sometimes its not. More often than not its not.

The weird part is every other gear is perfectly easy to get in and out of, and it doesn't seem to have any issues. Reverse gear is also flawless.

The previous owner mentioned something about the slave cylinder having issues in the past. That it was low on fluid, he filled it up, and it never happened again.

This isn't the 1st gear lock out when the car is rolling. It does this from a dead stop.

Miraculously it happens today when I was ready to buy the car.

Anyway I bought it knowing it had the issue. I'm just hoping its not a HUGE issue to take care of.

Anyone know wehre I can start?

I topped off the fluid but that didn't help.

Also I opened up the reservoir and the fluid didn't look very clean at all and there was some kinda plastic piece just floating in it. I'm not sure if it is supposed to be that way or if it was broken.

Not sure what exactly it is. Heres a pic of it followed by a few of the car.

Thanks in advance for any advice as to where to start.

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95PreludeNAed

Holy SH*T that is a clean ass prelude. I might know what your issue is and from the conditions/issues you are mentioning, I've experience a few times in the past.

First of all, looking at your clutch fluid and seeing how black it is, that means that the seals inside of either the clutch master cylinder or clutch slave cylinder has deteriorated.

9 times out of 10, its going to be the clutch slave cylinder that needs replacing.

In a scenario where the clutch slave cylinder is bad:

1) THe fluid will turn black because of seal deterioration (just very small black fragments of the seal that gives the fluid that black cloud)

2) Even though you pressed the clutch pedal all the way down, since the seals have deteriorated, its not going to hold pressure really well (fluid seeps by back into the reservoir instead of staying to exert force on the clutch forks) and that's POSSIBLY why its really hard to get into first gear. You should be experiencing a little bit of difficulty in shifting into other gears. If not it might be another problem. But we'll just have to do process of elimination.

So in conclusion, it's hard to diagnose a car without actually being there to see and feel the problem personally. But by the looks of your clutch fluid, in any case, (whether the slave cylinder is the problem or not) you need to change that slave cylinder. Clutch Master Cylinders don't go out too often, but check to see if there are leaks behind the master cylinder seal behind the clutch pedal.

Sorry for typing up an essay, I get a bit nerdy on car stuff. I used to be a technician, but I don't know everything. PM me if you have to.

95PreludeNAed

Oh by the way, price on the clutch slave cylinder ranges anywhere from $15-$30 for a decent one at your local auto parts store. Don't forget to buy brake fluid. Upgrade to a DOT4 if you'd like...it has higher temp ratings plus its compatible for mixing with DOT3.

ludestarbai

I really feel no issue with any of the other gears, MAYBE shifting into 2nd but not even that really.

I did notice small fragments of black **** in the tranny fluid reservoir so I think your diagnosis of the seal being the issue maybe spot on...

While that maybe something to look at and certainly ONE of my problems I'm not sure its my only problem beacuse again none of the other gears have this issue.

Thanks for the props on the car. i picked it up beacuse i always planned on painting mine black and doing the H22 5spd swap... since this one was already black and already H22 5spd I figure it was a good place to start vs my current lude.

My gold one will be in the for sale section in a few weeks after I've put my 5 lug conversion on to this new car.

Dont worry about essays the longer the explanation the better, i like to have an idea what i'm doing and why, this **** is a learning experience for me too. So thanks for taking the time out to write all that up

I'm glad its not expensive, I dont mind doing that to try it out. Is it difficult to change this part? I've never done it before... I do have a service manual although its at my g/f's apartment so i acn't look up the info regarding it right now. I'm not a mechanic or a tech but I haven't been afraid to fix **** myself in the past and so far everything I've attemped has come out well so I'll be willing to teach myself how to do this and attempt it.

If its my other fear, that is a 1st gear syncro... I'm not sure I can handle taking apart a transmission yet... lol

Again thanks for the tips and I look forward to anything you or anyone else would like to add.
I was

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95PreludeNAed

No problem. Even though I'm a technician, everytime I work on a car, its still a learning experience for me.

In my point of view, I don't think its that hard to change the clutch slave cylinder.

The process might take a while...I'd say a couple hours AT MOST if you are able to fit your hands between the radiator and fans and the engine/transmission.

The book will tell you one way (of course) but as you do this kind of stuff, you can take safe shortcuts (hopefully).

To diagnose the possibility of a 1st gear synchro problem, does it ever grind when you put it in? If so it could be possible that the synchro is bad, but if it hasn't been abused then I'd say that shouldnt be the problem. If it is, worry about it last because labor for that job its A LOT longer.

As I have experienced before with the clutch fluid being black, I figured out that the slave cylinder was the problem considering the factors of black fluid, hard shifting into gears.

Having a bad clutch slave cylinder WILL cause the transmission to be hard to shift. Now I said it that there should be a POSSIBILITY of hard shifting into other gears, but THAT MAY NOT ALWAYS BE THE CASE AND THAT IT COULD JUST HAPPEN TO ONE GEAR, 1st gear being the pain in the ass.

I've also experienced it on my own Prelude: it was hard shifting into first gear (and taking the shifter out of first gear too) but shifting into other gears was plain simple.

The clutch slave cylinder and its seals are prone to expand and contract ( because of:

1) the heat up when you run the engine (seals expand because of heat and are able to hold pressure in some cases) and...

2)contraction because you're not running the car and the seals contract and become less flexible to fill in the deteriorated spots allowing fluid to seep by the seals and not being able to hold the clutch pressure which causes hard shifting. Because of this even though you press the clutch predal all the way down, internally in terms of fluid travel, the fluid is not pressing the clutch 100% of the way because the fluid is seeping back into the reservoir.

I'd say replace the clutch slave cylinder (check your clutch master cylinder too for leaks around it) because from what it sounds like, that is the problem. Narrow down your problems from easy to hard (just for the car - no guarantee for relationships or other adversities haha) If you can find someone who knows a lot about cars, especially Hondas, in your area (I mean one who has done a lot of CLEAN work (clean methods not messy) then I'd take his suggestion into consideration along with what you can find here on the forums. Feel free to ask any more questions - I really don't mind at all.

Bbereket16

nice car bro nice way to start off dont know much about your problem but mad props on your car good luck on everything

mgcshroomz

throw out bearing

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ludestarbai

The car was SUPPOSEDLY owned by an older woman before being purchased by another "older" gentleman... The guy has 2 other preludes and this one he bought simply beacuse it was "too good of a deal to pass up" he said he put maybe 1500 miles on it since he bought it. That it just sat in his warehouse with the intent to do some fun stuff to it.

Either way he made it very clear that he has had slave cylinder problems in the past and that all it took was a refill of the fluid to fix the problem.

It was fairly full thats why I was worried that this WASN'T the problem. However I understand the pressure thats needed and that the seal could very well be the problem.

Again the car sat for a VERY long time....

I am HOPING that its not the syncros because I'm not sure I wanna invest that much money into this right now. would NOT be opposed to trying to tackle the job myself... getting the tranny out shouldn't be a problem its what the hell to do with it once its out Ithat I'd be more concerned with lol.

Anyway back to your point about the slave cylinder. I definitely think you're right that its at least ONE of my problems and will definitely try to replace it this weekend.

You by any chance know of any good write-ups online? I dont expect you to go go searching for me, just wondering if you know of any. Doesn't have be prelude specific of course. I figure it, IN CONJUNCTION with my service manual should be able to get me through that job.

Again, seriously thank you for the long reply the more information u throw at me the the better.


Thanks boss I appreciate it. I'm a bit of a prelude freak, as you see in my signature I have another 92 lude that currently has s2000 wheels and a 5 lug conversion. I plan on taking that stuff off and putting it into this "new one" swapping them basically, and selling the 92. Its a great car... runs absolutely perfect and ice cold AC... but I really wanted the H22 and 5spd... and figured it was easier to start with a 5spd vs doing the conversion.

Can you (or anyone else) elaborate on this a little for me? Thanks for the tip and I'll be googling it to learn more about it in mean time.

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minilogoguy18

If the seals in the slave are bad you'd notice the fluid leaking from it. My old M2S4 tranny did this with 1st sometimes and I would just go 2nd->1st real quick and it would help it to go in every time. I would drain that fluid and replace then bleed before replacing the slave. I'm still using the same master and slave cylinders on my new T2W4 btw and no longer have this prob.

ludestarbai

I agree that a good transmission flush and repalcing the slave cylinder is going to be my first step in diagnosing this issue.

Thanks.

One other symotom to mention is that when I'm having trouble with this first gear, you'v got to rev the **** outta the car to get it moving without it stalling.

I dont know if that little symtom helps to diagnose it...

The thing is again, this isn't ALWAYS the problem.

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minilogoguy18

Hmm, well actually scratch what I said since I was trying to fix a random funny idle and after cleaning everything out it still does it but I noticed a funny vibration in the clutch pedal and looked at my reservoir and my fluid looked like yours. I think both of us need new slave cylinders and the clutch either slipping or slightly engaging might be causing my idle.

95PreludeNAed

Bad seals in a slave cylinder most of the time will not cause it to leak externally. WHat I mean is that it won't be able to hold pressure. The seals are internal and are meant to hold pressure. Take a syringe for example. the round thingy that presses the fluid through the opening is rubber, if that rubber is deteriorated, its not going to be able to press the fluid down efficiently. Now seeing it from the clutch point of view, the clutch pedal press the fluid via slave cylinder via master cylinder. The thing thats different about this from the syringe is that you have the clutch pressure plate pushing back...thats why when you let go of the pedal it goes back up because the pressure plate pushes that fluid. If you're pressing the clutch pedal and you have bad seals in the slave, and the clutch pressure plate is pressing back, as it always does, then the fluid is going to seep past the bad seals back into the reservoir. Just because you have a full reservoir doesn't mean it will allow the problem to go away.

I'm not sure about any write ups that I know of but Im sure there are plenty out there. Let me know what you find.

ludestarbai

thanks for the explanation boss... makes a lot more sense now...

Bottle of Honda ATF is waiting for me at the dealer, and I'm picking up brand new slave and master cylinders from advance auto parts tomorrow.

Thanks for the tips fellahs.... hopefully it solves my problem!

Syncro problems still troubling me in the back of my mind but i'll cross my fingers and hope for the best!

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95PreludeNAed

OH no!! you dont want ATF!! LoL. Wait its a manual transmission right? If so use the HONDA MTF (manual transmission fluid). You definately do not want to use ATF (automatic transmission fluid) in a manual transmission. Hopefully you made a typo and meant MTF instead of ATF. The H22 manual transmission uses 2 quarts of the HONDA MTF.

ludestarbai

Another typo on my part. I'm sorry bro... definitly MTF---

As kind of an update... and request for advice....

To recap I picked up the car on Tuesday evening. My first seat in it when taking "delivery" the car wouldn't go into first gear for ****. I've never experienced this so i didn't know what to think/try.

It was late at night... just wanted to get it home so I could get to other **** for my evening...

It got home giving a little trouble on the way but not dying... forcing etc... got it into first figured I'd deal with it later.

I haven't been home till this evening. (Didn't get a chance to play with it Wednesday) My license plate is in the mail (another story) so I didn't wanna take the car out very far but around my block a few times.

It seems that 1st is real rough to shift into, but it WILL go if I go to 2nd first or play around with it a little. And especially the 1st to 2nd shift is roughest...

But it seems that if I just go into second and row the gears around a bit as suggested before, that it WILL go into 1st with a little coaxing.

Now this was just me dicking around with it for about 20 minutes around my neighborhood.

What I'm getting at, is I'm not sure if this should be accepted as "normal' behavior since it seems so many other lude owners online are describing similar things.

I bought the master and slave cylinders today as well as a some brake fluid and some Honda MTF....

I dont mind spending the $$ on these parts/fluid if its going to help the situation, but if I'm likely going to be right where I started beacuse the way its behaving is "normal"-- I'd rather take my unopened parts back to the store and "live with it"

Again if my plan of attack, replacing slave/master cylinder... bleeding clutch, and changing out transmission fluid (complete drain/refill) can offer a benefit I will be willing to do it.

What do you guys think?

I mean the car sat for pretty much at least 3 years--- (1500 miles in 3 years, only 200 in the last year supposedly) and god knows how long before that it was changed... at 157k miles on it, I figure it couldn't hurt...

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95PreludeNAed

Wow three years is a long time and the fluid properties could sort of break down over that period of time. Have you asked the previous owner about the shifting problem yet?

I remember you saying that the previous owner had a slave cylinder problem. If so, and that problem existed before he let the car sit, the seals might have been deteriorating over that period of time.

Of course, its not normal for a prelude to shift in a rough manner unless the car itself has met some sort of extreme condition (i.e. sitting around for three years with no start.

Everything is up to you on whether you want to do all of this or not. I just want to give you advice on what to check and make sure a fellow Prelude owner is satisfied with the way his/her ride is performing. You can ask other people or call Honda Dealership and ask to speak to a Honda Tech. I've work at Honda in Arizona and Missouri and most of my fellow techs are very helpful in most situations.

If the Prelude was my car and I wanted to keep it (also considering that yeah maybe the Prelude is an old car, but any car needs maintenance especially if its been sitting around) I'd change the fluids. Oil, transmission fluid, bleed the clutch, the brake system, and so on, and try to get fresh fluid circulating throughout the whole car.

I can say that I've been through a lot with my Prelude. 3 radiators (now replaced with a Koyo Aluminum for the first time - NICE AS F*CK), 3 clutches, 4 slave cylinders, 1 clutch master cylinder, its been through Arizona heat and Midwestern blizzards. What I've learned, and it sucks, its that some times you will have to invest in your car especially if its an old one. My car is 150 miles away from 200,000miles. Man I am excited. I feed it with nothing but fully synthetic motor oil and Honda MTF...High quality stuff...maybe I treat it better than my GF. Haha. I'd get my ass kicked if I said that in front of her.

I've only been a tech for 5 years and I went to automotive school and I can say engine fluids are one of the most critical things for a cars' engine to function properly. More important than most people think in some cases. I guess I can say for now, my advice,...is to call and speak to a Honda Technician over the phone. Possibly ask for someone who knows about the aftermarket well. By the way there's no shame in asking. Even I have to ask some times. Good Luck man and let me know what you come up with.

ludestarbai

So guys... I got the slave cylinder in last night.

I'm doing the master tonight.

One thing I noticed while looking at the stuff last night to make sure I know what I'm doing today is the feeder tube going from my master cylinder reservoir to the master cylinder... I've never seen this kinda tube used here before, pic below, can someone tell me if this is normal or if somewhere down the line someone used something they weren't supposed to?

I kinda bled the system last night just to flush the **** out when i did the slave cylinder just to see what would happen, and let me tell you guys the clutch fluid in there was literally BLACK i mean no where near what brake fluid is supposed to look like.

I'm not sure what caused it, if it was sitting there, if it was the bad slave cylinder, or potentially bad master cylinder.

I plan on replacing the master either way since i'm in here doing this may as well just get it all done.


But yea I'm curious if this tube for some reason is the reason my liquid is turning black.

When you touch the tube its like soaked with brake fluid. This could have been cuz i spilled a bit when i was refilling the reservoir to bleed the system, but I'm not 100% positive its not the tube itself leaking...

If this is the wrong kinda tube and I need to replace it, is this something I should order from Honda? or is it something I can find at any store like auto zone? What characteristics in tubing should I look for? other than size it looks like any old tube could work, beacuse the pressure isn't built up until AFTER it passes through the master cylinder right? If you guys think I should replace the tube please help me determine what to replace it with?

Thanks again for your help! Looking forward to resolving this problem asap!


Here's pic of the tube I've got now:

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95PreludeNAed

The fluid is black because of the deteriorated internal seals inside the slave cylinder and/ or master cylinder. It is possible that the tube in your picture could be deteriorating inside and causing the fluid to go black (because of very small rubber particles).

That tube is normal. It's the OEM tube. The reason why it looks like that is because the tube is surrounded by some braided fabric which acts like braided brake lines. It prevents the tube from bulging when you press the clutch pedal. I'm not sure why they would have that braided fabric on that particular line, but maybe the engineers at Honda figure that some sort of press goes through there since it is connected to the master cylinder and the reservoir thats feeding is connect directly.

That particular tube may be pricey. You can replace it with a regular tube - something strong and see what it does. I recommend replacing the clamps too. FIND THE RIGHT SIZE. Try not to get a clamp where its small enough to screw all the way down to match the hoses' diameter. Get one that is close tp the outer diameter of the hose when in the package - I had a leakage issue because the hoses wasn't clamping the whole circumference of the hose.

If you decide to keep it, clean it out and let it dry.

1) Buy a new hose if you want (if not then inspect the interior of the hose, if in good condition then you can reuse it)

2) Buy well-fitting clamps for that hose

3) Of course buy some nice brake fluid. Bump up to a dot4 if you'd like since it has a higher boiling point

Any more questions or concerns, we're here.

ludestarbai

Thanks again boss.

I'll try to see what i can come up with at autozone. if its not too expensive i dont mind replacing it... but i'm not paying $20 for a hose lol.

I'll see what autozone/pep boys/advance auto parts has to offer... thanks again!

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ludestarbai

The tubes and the clips actually aren't that bad.

I'll be still stopping at autozone/pep boys tonight to see what they may have...

If nothing suitable I'll order the parts online tonight and just change them some other time.

6971-SS0-A00 TUBE, CLUTCH FLUID $6.21
46918-SM4-020 CLIP A13, TUBE $2.76/ea (need two)

if anyone ever finds this thread sometime in the future and needs part numbers.

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