Ugh. This is really more venting than anything else, so bear with me. Oh, and this is pretty long, too.... hehehe...
For a while now, about two months, I've noticed my 93 VTEC Prelude made a hammering noise when the RPM's go down; if I step on the gas in neutral, as the tach goes down, a rattling/hammering/ugly noise comes from within the engine.
My dad's not a mechanic, but he's good with cars. He always fixes his 80 GMC truck, his 95 Dodge van, and my 81 Accord hatchback. He's got Service manuals for those cars, and everytime he can't figure something out on those cars, he goes to those books and eventually gets to the root of the problem. But he doesn't want to touch the Prelude, saying the DOHC engine makes it hard to see what's up with the car without risking additional damage to the engine.
Anyway, there's this Honda/Acura specialist in town, I took the car to him on my dad's advice. He seems like a nice guy, almost like a "computer dork"-ish guy. He says it's coming from the camshaft, that it could be the timing belt or perhaps worse.
So I took it to him this morning, and he tells me to pick up the car late this afternoon, saying it was fixed. I turn the ignition, and as soon as the engine starts up and the tach lowers, the noise is *back.* He says he and his other mechanic had looked at it and noticed the tensioner was loose and misaligned, and he had to take apart some pieces to get at it. Once that was done, they checked it out, and the noise was gone. For this, he took $150.
Well, it clearly wasn't, I pointed it out to him. He seemed distraught over it, and said he'd take it apart and look at it again this Thursday morning, and then call me to tell me what his price would be.
I'm pissed, how could he not have heard the damn noise again? My dad and I looked at it after I brought it home, and he said something was amiss; that it wasn't worth nearly $150 to just adjust the tensioner and tighten the belts, according to him. He said he and I should try to go ahead and take off the valve cover and see if the valves need to be adjusted; we should pick up a Service Manual for the car to check how the valves should be adjusted. But we're worried that if we get in there, do something, and then it turns out the noise is back, we'll take it to the mechanic and he'll claim that the car was adjusted, and he'll want more money.
I don't think the mechanic is a cheat, he sure doesn't seem that way, and that mechanic did do some work on the Accord I used to have, and it was a fair deal then.
I wish I knew about engines. I can figure out what's wrong with a computer, no problem. But cars are so complex, how can anyone learn this stuff? Anyway, that's the end of my rant.
If anyone wants to throw in opinions, comments, or up their post count, feel free to do so. Argh....
Originally posted by FGarcia1 - snip -
I'm pissed, how could he not have heard the damn noise again?
Easy- did you sit with him and show him the noise, identify it, and say "what is it, fix it?" If so, then yes, he's a boner. If not, he might have not heard the noise or differentiated it from something else.
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My dad and I looked at it after I brought it home, and he said something was amiss; that it wasn't worth nearly $150 to just adjust the tensioner and tighten the belts, according to him.
Yes, it is. Not the belts, but the timing belt tensioner it is. It's a PITA to get to since it's mashed up against the fenderwell. In fact, that's kind of cheap, I'd wonder if he really did it.
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He said he and I should try to go ahead and take off the valve cover and see if the valves need to be adjusted; we should pick up a Service Manual for the car to check how the valves should be adjusted. But we're worried that if we get in there, do something, and then it turns out the noise is back, we'll take it to the mechanic and he'll claim that the car was adjusted, and he'll want more money.
First, you need to identify the noise. What does it sound like? Ask your dad if it sounds like it's rod knock. The valves get loud when they get loose, but it's a ticking not a hammering or banging. Generally when you hear a hammering, banging, or knocking coming from a Honda, you just go buy a new motor.
The valve adjustment is easy, though. Do a search on valve adjustment and my username, you should find a "how-to."
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I wish I knew about engines. I can figure out what's wrong with a computer, no problem. But cars are so complex, how can anyone learn this stuff?
Easy. I learned by picking up a Honda factory manual. I daresay that if you can operate a torque wrench, buy the manual and you're qualified to do just about anything in there. Your dad might be comfortable with working on an '80 350, but honestly, it's not that much more complicated. You've got computer-controlled fuel injection and lack pushrods, but all the basic tricks and tests still work (just maybe a bit different).
Thanks for the reply, marcucci. We did listen to the noise together, so he knew what I meant. He identified it at the right moment in time. Why he didn't hear it, either he made an honest mistake, or he's jacking me. I dunno.
Maybe I'm not using the correct adjective to describe the noise, but my dad did say that it would be a good idea to inspect the valves, because "that's the noise they'd make if they were maladjusted."
I searched for your posts, you're right, your instructions came up pretty quick. I'm gonna pick up the Service Manual tomorrow, and my dad and I are gonna look at the engine. I'll print out your method, hopefully my dad can understand it (his English is good enough, but I hope he catches on the English car part names; he usually describes things to me in Spanish, and can sometimes provide translations, sometimes not...).
As for learning about mechanics, you make it sound easy by saying all I need is the manual. Maybe I can start with this project.
Well, marcucci, I showed my dad your FAQ instructions. He looked at it, nodded, grinned, then said, "F*ck the mechanic, we'll do this ourselves."
He's pretty psyched; he said what you wrote was what he needed to do the job. So that kicks major ass.
One thing, though: you say the piston order goes "1-3-4-2." Well, there's this page that also shows the valve adjustment for a Prelude, and they say the order is "1-2-4-3." What do you think? My dad says the Service Manual will have the correct order anyway, but I'd like to know about that.
Thanks for the help, marcucci; we're both feeling a whole lot better about this job.
Originally posted by FGarcia1 By the way, what's "PITA?"
Pain In The @ss
My first guess of your problem would be vavle tap. It should go away if you adjust the valves but I know Ryan(cantdrive55) can't get rid of the tap noise even after adjusting the valves again.
My first guess of your problem would be vavle tap. It should go away if you adjust the valves but I know Ryan(cantdrive55) can't get rid of the tap noise even after adjusting the valves again.
Hehehe... yeah, I should have guessed. We figure adjusting the valves is a good way to go (well, my dad figured that; I just sat there and nodded, to be honest ). But he knows it's still very much possible that won't fix the problem. Still, he says now that even if we do get into that and adjust the valves, the mechanic won't know it and thus claim something's been changed.
Originally posted by FGarcia1 Well, marcucci, I showed my dad your FAQ instructions. He looked at it, nodded, grinned, then said, "F*ck the mechanic, we'll do this ourselves."
Ha! Sounds like my kind of guy!
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One thing, though: you say the piston order goes "1-3-4-2." Well, there's this page that also shows the valve adjustment for a Prelude, and they say the order is "1-2-4-3." What do you think? My dad says the Service Manual will have the correct order anyway, but I'd like to know about that.
I don't know what that page is talking about, the Honda service manual says to do it 1-3-4-2 which is the firing order. They basically tell you to put each cylinder at top dead center (TDC) and adjust the valves that way. My personal preference is to turn the motor so that either the intake or exhaust cam lobe points completely away from the rocker to avoid any maladjustment- the Honda instructions don't leave much room for error. If you are slightly off from TDC you might mis-adjust the valves.
You mentioned that you're picking up the manual... no dealers around here carry them, you have to get them from http://www.helminc.com via mailorder. Email me, I can scan and email you the valve adjustment pages if you like. I'd still suggest buying the factory manual over a Haynes or Chiltons, they are excellent manuals and will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about the car.
I'm dead serious- I had never done anything more than change oil before I picked up my first Honda service manual. Honda taught me everything I know.
I may e-mail you on that one. The one he's got for the Accord is the one printed by Honda. So that's what we're looking for; he thinks it'll be at a Kragen Auto Parts, which is where he's gotten the others. Weird thing, he said, "If the manual costs more than $30, forget about it, we won't need it that bad." I'll see what he says.
In any case, looks like we're gonna get started this afternoon and see what happens. Thanks for all your help!
i would suggest getting a helms manual...the helms manual is the most complete manual that you can find for your prelude...it tells you every single bolt there is on your prelude...i have a shop manual and i'm so happy that i got it...
Is the noise at a specific rpm? I would check for loose bolts/nuts first. Check your heat shields. I've had my share of rattles.
How many miles do you have on your car? I'm having a similar problem and a valve adjustment didn't help. My idle used to be loud, but now for some reason, the noise only happens at 2.5k. I think it's the timing belt tensioner. There's quite a few people who have this problem. Who knows what your mechanic did while he was in there, but $150 is an ok price.
You might have to order the Helms manual online, unless you're lucky and your dealer has some in stock. If your dad has a tool to take off the crank pulley, I would take it apart and look at it myself. I am in the process of finding a tool to take it off. Good luck.
The one available at helminc.com is the only "real" one. If he paid less than $30 new for a manual, it was NOT made by Honda. The factory manuals run at least $60... but they are well worth it.
Check the email address you sent me. You won't need that manual for the valve adjustment.
i don't know what that mechanic was talking about, all H22's have a hydraulic tensioner, and there really isn't much of any kind of adjustment that you can do to it other than tighten the mounting bolts or replace it. So i would say that 150 bucks for that was a rip off.
Originally posted by Dr. James i don't know what that mechanic was talking about, all H22's have a hydraulic tensioner, and there really isn't much of any kind of adjustment that you can do to it other than tighten the mounting bolts or replace it. So i would say that 150 bucks for that was a rip off.
James -- I was thinking the same thing... I was going to say that a new tensioner might be in order in this situation.
FGarcia1-- How many miles are on the car? And, have you had the valves adjusted in the last year or so? I have a noise coming from the timing belt area as well, which I'm passing off as a bad auto tensioner... I'm changing it soon. Let us know how your situation goes.
-Erik
ps-- oh yeah, get the real manual, it'll be your new best friend.
Ah, thanks for all the comments. Well, here's what happened:
My dad and I couldn't do the valve adjustment, as we didn't have a replacement gasket valve cover (I think that's what it's called), so we couldn't do it that Wednesday. Calling around town, we wouldn't have one until Friday.
The mechanic had told us that he would look at the car Thursday morning, free of charge, and then call me on what was the problem, then tell me what it would cost. Well, my dad decided that we could let him look at it Thursday if it was going to be free anyway. So we let him have the car.
When I got home from school that afternoon, my dad was home and he told me he'd gone to the mechanic's place to see the car. Essentially, the long and short of it is that my dad thought the problem was legitimate. Something to do with the tensioner belt not staying taut when the engine is under load. My understanding of mechanical work isn't great, but that's as much as I could pick up of it. He also said that the mechanic had checked the valves from day one, so there was no point in our checking them again. The receipt reads:
My dad seemed satisfied with how it turned out, saying this was something we couldn't have done on our own anyhow. In the end, the car doesn't have the noise anymore. It does have a whine when I rev the car, which both my dad and the mechanic say is normal, due to the belt. I guess I'm satisfied, but it sucks not knowing exactly what was going on, to know if I was getting a raw deal or not.
Well, thanks for all your help, especially marcucci for going through the trouble of scanning the pages from his manual!
The car has 97K, but the engine was replaced (new) at 35K, so it's at about 62,000 miles right now. And we hadn't had the valves adjusted in the past year, actually.
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). But he knows it's still very much possible that won't fix the problem. Still, he says now that even if we do get into that and adjust the valves, the mechanic won't know it and thus claim something's been changed.
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