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Old 10-23-2008, 10:37 AM   #1 (permalink)
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gas question..

Okay, so my dad drove my car and put normal unleaded gas in it..
its jdm h22 swapped so...
he drove it home and it's fine so far..
but is there anything I should be worried about..
what could happen?
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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nothing the car will retard itself.

just put 91 octane whenever you get the chance and don't redline during this tank. you'll be fine
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:23 PM   #3 (permalink)
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cool thanks man.
I wasn't sure if it would completely mess up or not.. and I did drive it to school and back with no problem.. so yeahhhh. thanks again.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by petern101 View Post
nothing the car will retard itself.

just put 91 octane whenever you get the chance and don't redline during this tank. you'll be fine
Wait if it's a jdm swap then it's odb1 and it won't retard it self right? When I did my swap my motor would knock and ping when there was 87 in the tank. We had to adjust the timing manually until I could refill it with some 91.
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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^you got me thinking since I really didn't read his post fully (sorry).

I still think it will be fine, it will bog though (I had to put 90 octane in my car once because that was the premium available).

I for sure know about the obd2 handling this issue well but obd1 can't adjust the timing.

I would still think honda would allow for lower grade fuel with different fuel maps or something in order to protect against this issue. If worse comes to worse, I guess siphon out the tank

I'm sure the OP isn't the first to run a h22a with low grade fuel.
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I just bought a '96 S model a few weeks ago and didn't realize these things took premium gas until I stumbled upon one of these threads. Anyways, 2 1/2 tanks of unleaded later & the car still drives fine. Although I put some octane booster in the tank 2 days ago. Anyways, once this tank runs out you can bet your @$$ she's only gettin' premium from now on.

Back in the day I had an '85 lude & always put the cheap stuff in it. Now y'all got me thinkin' about that one.
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
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^well an S I probably wouldn't unless you figured if it got better gas mileage and cost less in the long run to run premium.
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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^well an S I probably wouldn't unless you figured if it got better gas mileage and cost less in the long run to run premium.
so the type s is good with the regular cheap stuff? damn... worried over nothing. (sorry y'all, I'm a newb with this model)
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
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You have a prelude S, not type s (big difference).

Sorry but the prelude S is the lowest model available to the preludes.
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Old 10-25-2008, 09:18 AM   #10 (permalink)
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lol. im still confused...
but after 70-90 miles on just plain old gas my jdm h22 is still fine..
no bogging, motor still idles the same, runs the same.
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
 
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Just put Premium gas in on a go forward.. I'd go put some in right now...
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:23 AM   #12 (permalink)
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i have never put premium gas in mine and i have been driving it for nearly 6 months.
will it make a difference?
i mean i just dont see the point since it is so much more expensive and the only difference is it burns faster. that seems like it would be a waste to me but im pretty new at having this car.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:40 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I'm surprised by how many people don't know how octane works?

A common complaint of mine against any automotive enthusiast is the fact that wive's tales abound in our culture and the octane rating is one of the most common things nobody knows about.

So here's how octane works. For starters, a higher octane gas does NOT burn faster than lower octane gas, it is quite the opposite. Higher octane gas burns SLOWER. This is why we need it:

If your engine takes premium fuel, the reason is because either you have a supercharger, turbocharger or very high compression (coupled with agressive timing on your motor). What do all of these parameters have in common? Their ability to have a higher pressure in the combustion chamber than a normal naturally aspirated car with moderate compression. They get that higher pressure by either having pressurized air enter the combustion chamber (from a turbocharger or supercharger) or by having high compression pistons squeeze the fuel/air mixture higher than a regular car, creating lots of stress on the engine's parts.

No matter how this pressure is built, the reason it is bad is because with high compression comes heat. Heat and pressure together will rapidly become out of control in your combustion chamber and will start to ignite the fuel before the engine wants it to (via the sparkplug) and if it detonates too early (while the piston is traveling upwards) it is going to explode the fuel/air charge too early and the valves will still be closed. So here you have a piston still compressing the charge with a cylinder full of expanding (exhaust) gas because the charge went off too early and what does that mean?

It means that the expanding exhaust gas has to find somewhere to go! So it's going to choose either through your piston rings, the piston itself or the valves. No matter which one it chooses (the path of least resistance is probably your piston, it'll just snap the rod attaching it or punch a hole through the dome of the piston) it's going to be costly.

So what higher octane gas does is makes it harder to ignite. It will delay that ignition by milliseconds really, but that's just what the engine needs. As the pressure rises, the higher octane gas will not "give in" to pre-detonation and let your engine self destruct.

If you want to know how they make higher octane gasoline, science has came a long way. Back in the day, Henry Ford's Model T ran on 40 octane gasoline. That's partly because they didn't have engine computers to do all the fancy things with timing like they do today.

Timing goes a long way to helping pre-detonation too. If you were curious, you'd wonder why the new 8th generation Honda Civic has a compression ratio of 10.5:1 on the D18 engine and only needs 87 octane to run on while our 10:1 compression ratio H22A4's need 91 octane minimum. The reason is all because of timing!

Timing is the term we use for how early or late a valve opens up. Remember how I said pre-detonation was so bad because the exhaust gas had nowhere to go and was probably going to start destroying something? What if you took out one of those obstacles it had to go through and opened it up? You can't make a piston get out of the way of that expanding exhaust gas, but you can open up a valve earlier right? And that's exactly how they do it. Your car companies engine computer has been programmed to all kinds of different modes and how to read sensors and such, so it won't let pre-detonation happen, it'll just change the timing and open the exhaust valves sooner and let that gas escape.

That whole thing involves a fine science that goes through alot of trial and error though. Engine computers have multiple fuel and timing maps preprogrammed for different parameters. Going to gun the engine directly after a cold start? It's got you covered. Going to let a hot engine idle compared to a cold engine? That's got you covered too. And so on.


Now I'll tell you really quickly about what a knock sensor is so it brings it all full circle. A knock sensor is a tiny acoustic device that is tuned in to hear only the sound of pre-detonation. This relatively simple device is "one of" the main differences between an OBD1 and OBD2 engine. Because the engine can now run at the maximum limit more. It will let that fuel/air charge get so close to pre-detonation (because that threshold is where the most power can be made) that it will wait to hear the pre-detonation sound and then send the signal to the engine computer telling it to cut (or retard) the timing. Then it plays safe.

So the answer to why an OBD1 engine (like the JDM H22A) really should never have less than 91 octane in it is because it does not have that knock sensor to tell it "oh my God, we're pre-detonating! Pull timing before we blow up!" It simply is running on its existing fuel maps not knowing the difference. Your low grade gasoline (87 octane) is probably detonating too early and hurting the engine big time. Remember, detonation is not always audible to the human ear!! Just because you can't hear it doesn't mean it's not happening!

And FINALLY, why you shouldn't or don't need to put premium in a vehicle that doesn't require premium... (like your Prelude S not to be confused with type S) Your low compression, lower performance H23 engine will treat high octane gasoline in this way. As the high octane gasoline enters your combustion chamber, the spark will ignite as the piston reaches Top Dead Center (and now we're talking in milliseconds again) the spark won't immediately ignite the fuel like it should with 87 octane, instead, it's going to wait those precious few miliseconds to ignite losing valuable power making abilities (in the form of pushing the piston down to rotate the crankshaft) in that time. In essence, you're going to actually LOSE power! That's right, all because you thought premium gas was going to give it more power, tsk tsk.

So what questions do you have?
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:45 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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So the answer to why an OBD1 engine (like the JDM H22A) really should never have less than 91 octane in it is because it does not have that knock sensor to tell it "oh my God, we're pre-detonating! Pull timing before we blow up!"
OBD1 H22A and H22A1 both have knock sensors.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:53 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I have a jdm h22a and from what I've read on here everyone says to use 91, why exactly? 91 is our cheap stuff over here and it seems to love 95...
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I have a jdm h22a and from what I've read on here everyone says to use 91, why exactly? 91 is our cheap stuff over here and it seems to love 95...
Most people use 91 because that's the highest octane available in their area. I'm not sure what octane is run in Japan on the H22A but it's higher than 91.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Don't anybody ever believe that European Gasoline or Japanese Gasoline has a higher octane than ours. I see this all the time "oh, I wish I lived in insert country here because they have 95 and 98 octane at the pump."

But you aren't figuring the fact of how they calculate octane ratings overseas versus the United States. In the United States, we take the MON, add it to the RON and divide by two. In Europe, they will only use the RON. In essence, Europe and Japan's 98 and 95 octane are equal to our 93 and 91 octane. I kid you not.

In order to better understand gasoline, which some of you desperately need to do to stop from spreading lies, read this website:

Gasoline FAQ - Part 3 of 4

Here's a couple of excerpts:


6.5 What does the Motor Octane rating measure?

The conditions of the Motor method represent severe, sustained high speed,
high load driving. For most hydrocarbon fuels, including those with either
lead or oxygenates, the motor octane number (MON) will be lower than the
research octane number (RON).

Test Engine conditions Motor Octane
Test Method ASTM D2700-92 [104]
Engine Cooperative Fuels Research ( CFR )
Engine RPM 900 RPM
Intake air temperature 38 C
Intake air humidity 3.56 - 7.12 g H2O / kg dry air
Intake mixture temperature 149 C
Coolant temperature 100 C
Oil Temperature 57 C
Ignition Advance - variable Varies with compression ratio
( eg 14 - 26 degrees BTDC )
Carburettor Venturi 14.3 mm

6.6 What does the Research Octane rating measure?

The Research method settings represent typical mild driving, without
consistent heavy loads on the engine.

Test Engine conditions Research Octane
Test Method ASTM D2699-92 [105]
Engine Cooperative Fuels Research ( CFR )
Engine RPM 600 RPM
Intake air temperature Varies with barometric pressure
( eg 88kPa = 19.4C, 101.6kPa = 52.2C )

Intake air humidity 3.56 - 7.12 g H2O / kg dry air
Intake mixture temperature Not specified
Coolant temperature 100 C
Oil Temperature 57 C
Ignition Advance - fixed 13 degrees BTDC
Carburettor Venturi Set according to engine altitude
( eg 0-500m=14.3mm, 500-1000m=15.1mm )


6.7 Why is the difference called "sensitivity"?

RON - MON = Sensitivity. Because the two test methods use different test
conditions, especially the intake mixture temperatures and engine speeds,
then a fuel that is sensitive to changes in operating conditions will have
a larger difference between the two rating methods. Modern fuels typically
have sensitivities around 10. The US 87 (RON+MON)/2 unleaded gasoline is
recommended to have a 82+ MON, thus preventing very high sensitivity fuels
[39]. Recent changes in European gasolines has caused concern, as high
sensitivity unleaded fuels have been found that fail to meet the 85 MON
requirement of the EN228 European gasoline specification [106].


6.9 How is the Octane rating determined?

To rate a fuel, the engine is set to an appropriate compression ratio that
will produce a knock of about 50 on the knockmeter for the sample when the
air-fuel ratio is adjusted on the carburettor bowl to obtain maximum knock.
Normal heptane and iso-octane are known as primary reference fuels. Two
blends of these are made, one that is one octane number above the expected
rating, and another that is one octane number below the expected rating.
These are placed in different bowls, and are also rated with each air-fuel
ratio being adjusted for maximum knock. The higher octane reference fuel
should produce a reading around 30-40, and the lower reference fuel should
produce a reading of 60-70. The sample is again tested, and if it does not
fit between the reference fuels, further reference fuels are prepared, and
the engine readjusted to obtain the required knock. The actual fuel rating
is interpolated from the knockmeter readings [104,105].



6.13 Can higher octane fuels give me more power?

On modern engines with sophisticated engine management systems, the engine
can operate efficiently on fuels of a wider range of octane rating, but there
remains an optimum octane for the engine under specific driving conditions.
Older cars without such systems are more restricted in their choice of fuel,
as the engine can not automatically adjust to accommodate lower octane fuel.
Because knock is so destructive, owners of older cars must use fuel that will
not knock under the most demanding conditions they encounter, and must
continue to use that fuel, even if they only occasionally require the octane.

If you are already using the proper octane fuel, you will not obtain more
power from higher octane fuels.
The engine will be already operating at
optimum settings, and a higher octane should have no effect on the management
system. Your driveability and fuel economy will remain the same. The higher
octane fuel costs more, so you are just throwing money away. If you are
already using a fuel with an octane rating slightly below the optimum, then
using a higher octane fuel will cause the engine management system to move to
the optimum settings, possibly resulting in both increased power and improved
fuel economy. You may be able to change octanes between seasons ( reduce
octane in winter ) to obtain the most cost-effective fuel without loss of
driveability.

Once you have identified the fuel that keeps the engine at optimum settings,
there is no advantage in moving to an even higher octane fuel. The
manufacturer's recommendation is conservative, so you may be able to
carefully reduce the fuel octane. The penalty for getting it badly wrong,
and not realising that you have, could be expensive engine damage.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:38 PM   #18 (permalink)
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^unless you're tuned to higher octane fuel
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:40 PM   #19 (permalink)
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That was never mentioned in the above.
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:07 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Yeah I know, I was just saying.
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