I gathered up the parts, and in taking a look at the front wheel conversion, I was disappointed to discover this is just another butcher job. The brake line attachments at the knuckle are different, maybe people are only using one of the two bolts, and the ABS lines are different too. The distance between the ABS sensor fasteners at the hub is different, you can't attach the 4Gen sensor to the 5Gen knuckle, and even if you could, the support attachment bolt spacing on the upper portion of the knuckle is different too. I don't know how people are hooking up 4Gen ABS sensors, I assume those using 5Gen lines are supporting using only one bolt on the upper portion of the knuckle. I could live with having to alter where the wiring attaches to the inside of the fender (that's different too), and rerouting the under hood line so the plug can reach the shorter 5Gen sensor wire, but as a whole this is an abortion. I can't be proud of such a sloppy result, nor do I want to worry about what's going to come loose because it's only held with one bolt. This is just like all the people mounting P28 and P72 ECU's with one (out of four) bolts, or worse yet, the heathens using velcro. My approach is to cut off and reweld the mounting tabs on the lower ECU tray to retain the use of all four bolts. Now I have to assume that nobody has even bothered to compare the critical dimensions of the two knuckles, and the cars suspension geometry will be screwed up too. Meaning kiss the Prelude's wonderful handling goodbye. This lug conversion ought to be done the conventional way, at least on the front-have the hub pressed out of the knuckle bearing and take it to a machine shop where they can cut off three of the lugs and install four new ones on the 5 lug pattern. I have no interest in staring at at ABS failure light on the dash, much less giving up my ABS or having the car handle like a pig (regardless of how cool my Mugen MZ3X wheels look). Oh yeah, the infamous EGR workaround was a joke too. The relay used to fool the P13 ECU chatters like a cricket, and adjusting the potentiometer to different resistances makes no difference. It's great fun driving down the road knowing that relay is doomed to failure, and wondering what strange fuel mapping the ECU is choosing in response to the return voltage changing every ten milliseconds.
I know the brake lines are different, you just zip tie those. ABS sensor i don't knwo about because i thought you were supposed to use the 5th gens...or none at all.
the two knuckles are almost idential since we share almost the same suspensions with minor differences. so handling shouldn't be affected in anyway.
on race cars, there is a saying, "you only need two bolts to secure something" but one bolt on an ECU isn't that big of a deal to worry about. the sensor might be an issue but i would just use loctite.
cutting off studs is the most stupid way to do a 5 lug conversion. you are really talking about messing stuff up there. i can see getting one of those adapters with spacers that has a whole new set of 5 lugs, but those carry rather large offsets.
4th gen abs system is 2 channel, meaning its old as crap and really doesn't improve the handling of the car. better pads would out do the 4th gen abs imo and not freaking out in a situation. also, the prelude is a pig, its pretty heavy at 2900lbs+
egr workaround is one of those useless mods. unless you are a full out race car, its just easier to keep in or just use the real block plates that are secure.
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"I am a ricer because I have Z3 fenders" Bless Her Heart ORG
I may see if 5Gen front brake lines are the same length as 4Gen. If so, a set of those isn't that expensive. Although I could probably buy a whole set of 5Gen SS lines for the price of front OEM rubber lines. Otherwise I'll take your advice and use Locktite.
ABS has nothing to do with handling, perhaps you're thinking of stability control like I have on my TSX. The ABS just allows one to hit the brakes in poor traction conditions without fear of wheel lockup. Better brake pads won't do any good, they might make things worse, as the HP pads tend to perform worse than stock when cold.
Modifying the hub risks nothing but your wallet. Professional machine shops do nice work, if you wanted to pay for the extra time, they could make the hub look like it was built this way. There is a chance that the 4Gen and 5Gen hubs are identical other than the lugs, but I don't think this is the case with the rears (which is part of the reason why the whole spindle gets swapped out). So the front hubs might not be interchangeable either. Note the 4Gen knuckle has a ring insert that the 5Gen either doesn't have, or it comes with the knuckle. Compare the two parts lists/diagrams for the knuckles.
I'm actually glad you brought up the spacers. Incorrect wheel offset is the number one mistake I see on the road. One goofy car after another, going down the road with too little offset. The wheels look stupid sticking out too far, and the suspension geometry has definitely been compromised. Preludes have a 55mm wheel offset, and 99% of the aftermarket wheels are 38-45mm. Of course Mugen knows better and offers correct offsets for Hondas, which is why I bought MZ3X's. My favorite part is when people try to tell me the stock Prelude wheels have 40 or 45mm of offset. Did they not look at the back of their original wheels? OEM Honda wheels have the offset cast into every wheel.
The wrong offset crowd is the same group who wastes $200 on pipe intakes. All you need to do is install a K&N filter in the stock airbox, and remove the intake resonator (and all it's piping, vacuum line, etc) from inside the front fender (beneath the air box). The car runs fantastic and looks stock. I preferred to spend the $200 on a OEM Honda Type-S intake, which will outperform the pipes, it flows a lot more air.
I have the 5Gen ABS sensors and wires, but the ABS unit in a 5Gen is up front on the drivers side, and the route to that point is different. I can make this work, I would just prefer a prettier solution. I guess a lot of people are doing 5 lug conversions on Prelude's that don't have ABS, so they don't even have these sensors.
The EGR block plate isn't the issue, that's the easy part. Avoiding the infamous CEL from coming on is the problem. The only good solution is buy a P72, or convert a P28 into a P72, and have the car dyno tuned with a wideband for hundreds of dollars. Plus reworking the mounting tray, of course, otherwise you have a ghettomobile. I think a P6 can be converted to a P72 as well. By the way, don't be fooled into thinking you don't need to mod to P72 status. People give up their IAB's, hooking them up to intake vacuum instead. Well, if you've driven any car with a vacuum gauge hooked up, you know vacuum goes to zero as soon as you start to depress the throttle any significant amount. Which means your IAB's are open all the time, killing torque below 4,000 rpm.
When I mod the car, I want the car to look like Honda built it that way. Which reminds me of another butcher job that's wildly popular. Swapping in the 5Gen glass sunroof. It fits alright, but it will sit too high, especially in front. You can either pull the headliner and space down the whole assembly, which means it will leak and ruin the headliner, or you can cut and reweld the brackets. For that it doesn't matter if you use the 4Gen or 5Gen brackets, but I recommend the 5Gen, as their bolt pattern actually matches the glass panel, and doesn't require that you live with elongated holes. If you have to modify the brackets to get the glass to sit flush, you my as well use the 5Gen brackets. Just make sure you get the two plastic covers that hide the bolts that attach to the glass panel. Otherwise you're ghetto anyway.
WoW.....I agree with you 100% I hate trying all these great conversions that never seem to turn out as perfect as advertised. After tons of research I did the roof job and was not happy with the way it sat soooo I spent hours trying to lower the whole assembly and then caulking the crack it left around the assembly and yes it still leaks. I dont see the leak but can smell it when I open the roof. I ruined a near perfect lude just for the look of glass! No more conversions for me.
I'm glad it didn't cost much to join this forum, and I sure won't renew when the year ends. I should have known what I was getting into when so many members had cars with goofy-looking wheel offsets. If you don't want to buck up for Mugen wheels, buy bigger wheels off some other Honda car with the right offset, like an Acura RSX or TSX. The big tire/wheel outfits like Tire Rack may claim that their wheel recommendations take offset into account, but they do not. They don't carry any high-offset wheels.
The only way to fix your sunroof is to cut the brackets, sand the paint off near the cut line, bevel one edge, reweld them with the mounting holes offset a little lower, grind the welds smooth, and repaint them.
The "4th Gen Prelude FAQ" thread should be called "butcher alley" or "weekend ghetto mods".
Which reminds me of another butcher job that's wildly popular. Swapping in the 5Gen glass sunroof. It fits alright, but it will sit too high, especially in front. You can either pull the headliner and space down the whole assembly, which means it will leak and ruin the headliner, or you can cut and reweld the brackets. For that it doesn't matter if you use the 4Gen or 5Gen brackets, but I recommend the 5Gen, as their bolt pattern actually matches the glass panel, and doesn't require that you live with elongated holes. If you have to modify the brackets to get the glass to sit flush, you my as well use the 5Gen brackets. Just make sure you get the two plastic covers that hide the bolts that attach to the glass panel. Otherwise you're ghetto anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjvoet
The only way to fix your sunroof is to cut the brackets, sand the paint off near the cut line, bevel one edge, reweld them with the mounting holes offset a little lower, grind the welds smooth, and repaint them.
i dont know why are you crying, the ABS in the 4th gen preludes doesnt even work properly to begin with. I threw away the abs sensors when i did my 4 lug conversion. if you want to have a great handling car, change all the balljoints, put new bearing and do everything the right way. thats what i did. and about the sloppyness, well if you dont like how the 5 lug conversion is done, just dont do it, very simple.
btw, if you wanna be a good driver, learn how to drive without abs, i did on my 240s with no problem. any good driver will tell you to learn your breaking first without abs.
look up the write-up. There is a VERY detailed one on here with pics. Why don't you just switch out the front arms & knuckles? Really not that difficult.
Oh, and btw, I think I have the offset thing down...
becuase of those comments, i will not help you. I was going to shed some light on the conversion for you, but you can get the info elsewhere now.
lol he can go to hondatech!! :gasp:
eh with that type of mentality, it just shines on stupid logic. every once in awhile we get new members. some stay quiet and some want to bring activity. whether that activity is positive or negative, thats up the the newbie.
we like how it is here, most members don't even have a prelude anymore and they still hang out. sean was right, you will be missed
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"I am a ricer because I have Z3 fenders" Bless Her Heart ORG
1. Honda doesn't sell cars in which safety systems don't work properly. The ABS works, it just doesn't work as smoothly as current systems. The pedal vibration has been dampened, and control of the pad pressure is better, so the stopping distances are shorter.
2. Nothing triggers a DOT-mandated recall faster than a flawed braking system. There wasn't one.
3. Buy a dictionary.
I am replacing all the bushings on the car, as well as addressing any worn out ball joints or ball joint boots. Not all of the Prelude ball joints can be bought individually though.
When I'm done, my 5 lug conversion will look like Honda built the car that way.
Nobody can consistently get the shortest stopping distance out of car on slick pavement without ever engaging an ABS system. Watch a few F1 races. The world's best drivers will lockup a wheel on dry pavement. And they are driving on clean pavement, with few expansion joints, using matched, hand-built tires, each probably worth more than my Prelude. The same guys will pit in the rain for full wets, only to return to the track and find themselves locking up wheels and sliding off anyway. So outperforming the Prelude's ABS, which responds in no more than 5ms and modulates an accumulator pressure over 3200psi, isn't possible on a consistent basis. You may not be engaging it, but how can you claim you stopped the car in the shortest possible distance? And driving without it means you cannot risk lockup when turning, so you'll have to slow down or risk overshooting the turn. Once the front wheels lock, the steering wheel no longer works.
I loved that 5Gen sunroof assembly swap, the timing is perfect. This will be the hot new Weekend Ghetto Mod! We've fixed the panel height at the front, but now we're too low in the back, but hey, we've gained a sunshade! A friend's Prelude was stolen, and when the Police finally found it, his interior looked just like that. Except he was able to drop the car off at a Honda dealer, and other people were again willing to ride in his car! I'd love to be there the first time you try to show off the sunshade... "uh, what happened to your headliner dude?"
1. Honda doesn't sell cars in which safety systems don't work properly. The ABS works, it just doesn't work as smoothly as current systems. The pedal vibration has been dampened, and control of the pad pressure is better, so the stopping distances are shorter.
you are def. right about that. it doesn't work as smoothly as most other systems. i already told you it was a 2 channel system. at least the 5th gen has a 3 channel system. so what if you have abs but can't control in a fast lane change manuver?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjvoet
2. Nothing triggers a DOT-mandated recall faster than a flawed braking system. There wasn't one.
that may be the case, but it still works perfectly fine w/o abs. so why would it be flawed? the prelude S came w/o abs, you don't see those owners crying
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjvoet
3. Buy a dictionary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjvoet
Nobody can consistently get the shortest stopping distance out of car on slick pavement without ever engaging an ABS system. Watch a few F1 races. The world's best drivers will lockup a wheel on dry pavement. And they are driving on clean pavement, with few expansion joints, using matched, hand-built tires, each probably worth more than my Prelude. The same guys will pit in the rain for full wets, only to return to the track and find themselves locking up wheels and sliding off anyway. So outperforming the Prelude's ABS, which responds in no more than 5ms and modulates an accumulator pressure over 3200psi, isn't possible on a consistent basis. You may not be engaging it, but how can you claim you stopped the car in the shortest possible distance? And driving without it means you cannot risk lockup when turning, so you'll have to slow down or risk overshooting the turn. Once the front wheels lock, the steering wheel no longer works.
your key argument is "slick pavement" meaning wet. only newer abs systems can really show some distinction between skilled/unskilled drivers. if you read grassrootsmotorsports magazine, they have an article about all the technology in cars and if it helps at the track. they took two drivers (one professional and one regular driver). had a new 3 series and proceeded to conduct tests with/without abs, tcs, etc. obviously technology helped the unskilled driver closer match with the pro but w/o the technology, the pro driver still outmatched the technology. thats a closer real world test compared to f1 cars dude.
so do whatever you like, just don't go looking down on us for our opinions
I loved that 5Gen sunroof assembly swap, the timing is perfect. This will be the hot new Weekend Ghetto Mod! We've fixed the panel height at the front, but now we're too low in the back, but hey, we've gained a sunshade! A friend's Prelude was stolen, and when the Police finally found it, his interior looked just like that. Except he was able to drop the car off at a Honda dealer, and other people were again willing to ride in his car! I'd love to be there the first time you try to show off the sunshade... "uh, what happened to your headliner dude?"[/QUOTE]
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"I am a ricer because I have Z3 fenders" Bless Her Heart ORG
3 channel is better than 2 channel and 2 channel is better than none. I live where there is sometimes "black ice" on highway overpasses, meaning your first indication that there isn't good traction is when the ABS engages, because you're traveling in a straight line (and there isn't any sensation of the steering not responding). When that happens I'm damn glad to have the ABS, it works great in those conditions, and that's why it was considered a significant safety advancement. Yeah, the car will stop w/o ABS. Take your 4Gen S out in those conditions though, and you're in big trouble. All you can do is pump the brakes, which is almost useless. Meanwhile, my Vtec w/ABS gives me a shot at not rear-ending the guy in front of me, who did hit the guy in front of him. He was driving a Prelude S....
Hanging a 5Gen sunroof assembly in the car, only to find the glass panel will not seat correctly and the tray is so long you'll be unable to install a rear headliner (without blocking your rear view), yet still suggest this is a viable mod, is ridiculous. I actually bought the whole assembly and considered this myself, but it just wasn't workable, that was obvious as soon as the headliner came down. The 5Gen assembly is way longer, and due to the roof curvature you have to lower the rear, which is why the glass panel is too low. I've actually had my sunroof assembly out once, one of the tiny internal springs broke and I had to replace it. And I'm going to be pulling it out again to clean out all the old grease, replace the parts that are plastic while they are still available, and regrease it. The aluminum parts will last a long time if greased occasionally, but the plastic parts are a risk, and Honda could run out of inventory or discontinue them at any time. They already ran out of roof strips, now I have to try to restore the ones I have, which have mildewed under the clear plastic. And this car has been garaged since I bought it in 1996 w/less than 4k miles.
3 channel is better than 2 channel and 2 channel is better than none. I live where there is sometimes "black ice" on highway overpasses, meaning your first indication that there isn't good traction is when the ABS engages, because you're traveling in a straight line (and there isn't any sensation of the steering not responding). When that happens I'm damn glad to have the ABS, it works great in those conditions, and that's why it was considered a significant safety advancement. Yeah, the car will stop w/o ABS. Take your 4Gen S out in those conditions though, and you're in big trouble. All you can do is pump the brakes, which is almost useless. Meanwhile, my Vtec w/ABS gives me a shot at not rear-ending the guy in front of me, who did hit the guy in front of him. He was driving a Prelude S....
maybe someone needs to learn how to drive and stop relying on technology... I've had 2 240s with NO ABS, i live in NYC and you learn how to drive in all weather conditions, snow, sleat, rain, they are all drivable if you are skilled enough, even black ice. now on my prelude, i don't sweat it cause i hate how ABS feels, if you wanna be safe in the winter, buy new winter tires and get better break pads (if you dont have money for that, then i suggest you save some). Stop crying about the ABS, If you know how to drive the car, you'll be able to stop it no matter what season it is.
1. Honda doesn't sell cars in which safety systems don't work properly. The ABS works, it just doesn't work as smoothly as current systems. The pedal vibration has been dampened, and control of the pad pressure is better, so the stopping distances are shorter.
I personally hate the prelude's ABS, so I disabled it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjvoet
I loved that 5Gen sunroof assembly swap, the timing is perfect. This will be the hot new Weekend Ghetto Mod! We've fixed the panel height at the front, but now we're too low in the back, but hey, we've gained a sunshade! A friend's Prelude was stolen, and when the Police finally found it, his interior looked just like that. Except he was able to drop the car off at a Honda dealer, and other people were again willing to ride in his car! I'd love to be there the first time you try to show off the sunshade... "uh, what happened to your headliner dude?"
LOL, I notice you haven't posted pics of your car, scared that your's is more "ghetto" than everyone else's? Yes, my headliner is all screwed right now, I'll be fixing it within the next few weeks and it will look stock. Just cause you're scared to try something new and put a little work into your car without having a detailed writeup to guide you doesn't make the mod "ghetto".
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjvoet
Hanging a 5Gen sunroof assembly in the car, only to find the glass panel will not seat correctly and the tray is so long you'll be unable to install a rear headliner (without blocking your rear view), yet still suggest this is a viable mod, is ridiculous. I actually bought the whole assembly and considered this myself, but it just wasn't workable, that was obvious as soon as the headliner came down. The 5Gen assembly is way longer, and due to the roof curvature you have to lower the rear, which is why the glass panel is too low. I've actually had my sunroof assembly out once, one of the tiny internal springs broke and I had to replace it.
It is very workable. This is where having a BB1 works against you. The 3rd brake light housing will hide the motor perfectly. The assembly is not "way longer", more like a few inches longer, and the rear is to low by a few mm. When you where looking at putting the 5g assembly in did it occur to you that you could *gasp* modify it by cutting off the parts that where in the way? Oh, right, there wasn't a writeup on how to do that...
Go back to honda-tech.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chester
Yeah, a 4th gen isn't even really a Prelude. It's a superior being.
...this car has been garaged since I bought it in 1996 w/less than 4k miles.
It's a 1995. Did you expect it to have 200,000 miles and be parked under a tree after a whole year? And if it's still in great condition after 12 years, since you seem to maintain it like no one I've ever seen, why do you even bother driving it in bad conditions? If you care about pampering the car so much, leave it in the garage and look at it.
I don't see how the 5g roof is a butcher job. Even if you just use the glass, it works fine. That's what I did and had no problem with it. If you spent hours trying to shim it, then you're a mechanical moron. I had never even pulled the headliner down, but managed to swap the roof and shim it perfectly (with no leaks) in about an hour. The 5g rail covers hid the metal perfectly.
Mega-props to Sean for trying something new and swapping the sunroof shade in with the glass. I've read posts that are many years old saying the swap can't be done. He's making Prelude history and proving them wrong. Yeah, he's having to modify parts to make them fit (heaven forbid they don't look stock) but it's gonna look hella awesome when he's done. It will definitely be something unique, until everyone and their dog is doing the same swap.
I agree with Sean on the ABS. It sucks. Mine no longer has it, either.
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