Basically im tired of my stock suspension and am ready to bring my prelude to life with some new shocks and springs. After some research, the koni sports/gc combo seem to be very well praised. Now I know suspension set ups depend on what your expectations are of the car, the lude being 90% daily driven with the other 10% chance of me getting into some auto-x in the summer, im expecting a 50-50 split between comfort and a firm, stable, ride. With my stock suspension being 160k miles old, i haven't gotten that great handling for a fwd response that alot of people speak of when discussing the prelude, which is what im looking to fix with a suspension revamp. Any particular custom spring rates i should consider? will I need a camber kit? anything else I need to mention when placing the order(ordering through mike from importrp.com for $800 shipped for the combo)? Nothing to hard core just want to be able to take turns with some confidence. My 97 lude's completely stock with stock base rims with toyo proxies(only about 2k miles on them). Will I be experiencing uneven thread wear/how long should the proxies last with the lude lowered? thanks in advance for all the help guys really appreciate it.
I will address your questions from an auto-X standpoint:
1) Ditch the toyos and get better tires. This will make the biggest difference money can make in auto-x. Potenza RE01R is the best competition/street tire setup money can get right now short of going to R-compounds. Wider is better. Back when I still had the lude, I was running 225s, and those were much better than the stock 205s.
2) A stiffer rear sway bar is a better upgrade than coilovers. Make sure you get that sorted out first.
Im more than happy with the current setup which is:
Neuspeed Front Upper Strut Bar
Tanabe Sustec Rear Upper Strut Bar
Tanabe Sustec Rear Lower Tie Bar
Bilstein Sport Shocks
Eibach Prokit Springs
This handles amazing at AutoX, and is still very good for a daily driver. The GC/Koni combo is a little harsh I think.
My next upgrade will be a progressive rear sway with adjustable endlinks, and a set of Dunlop Direzza Z1, which I think are almost as good as the REO1R's, for way less the price.
i'm gonna tell you right now, the least important things you need are frame stiffening things like strut tower bars and lower tie bars. your frame is already stiff enough. suspension upgrades will do WAY more then frame stiffeners.
everyone knows the saying you are only as strong as your weakest link. so start at the weakest link. at 160k, your bushings are probably on their last leg. dried up and useless. your BEST bet right now is new bushing kit. ask anyone that's done a new bushing kit. even at much lower miles like say 50k, they won't stop talking about how much better the car felt. everyone that has a rear sway bar loves it. so that would be your next option. and tires of course... those would be the first 3 things i would do in your situation. shocks and springs will no doubt help, but those 3 things will help out the most. as for what shocks and springs to go with...... you have to decide for yourself. however, when and if you do lower the lude, a camber kit 9 times out of 10 is not needed. what is in fact needed is an alignment. that will prevent more premature tire wear then a camber kit.... and its cheaper. unless you want to lower more then 1.5 inches..... which is useless. looks like ass and rides like ass. especially since you want something for daily driving.
I will address your questions from an auto-X standpoint:
1) Ditch the toyos and get better tires. This will make the biggest difference money can make in auto-x. Potenza RE01R is the best competition/street tire setup money can get right now short of going to R-compounds. Wider is better. Back when I still had the lude, I was running 225s, and those were much better than the stock 205s.
2) A stiffer rear sway bar is a better upgrade than coilovers. Make sure you get that sorted out first.
Unfortunately I wont have any extra monies for some better tires but how are the Michelin Pilot's that come with the 05-06 rsx type s rims?(215/45/ r17)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnab
Im more than happy with the current setup which is:
Neuspeed Front Upper Strut Bar
Tanabe Sustec Rear Upper Strut Bar
Tanabe Sustec Rear Lower Tie Bar
Bilstein Sport Shocks
Eibach Prokit Springs
This handles amazing at AutoX, and is still very good for a daily driver. The GC/Koni combo is a little harsh I think.
My next upgrade will be a progressive rear sway with adjustable endlinks, and a set of Dunlop Direzza Z1, which I think are almost as good as the REO1R's, for way less the price.
Thanks appreciate the response, i'll look into those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boymeetsfence
Most of this may be a lot harder for you if you have an SH model like me. Is yours base or SH?
Base luckily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewIsLudin
i'm gonna tell you right now, the least important things you need are frame stiffening things like strut tower bars and lower tie bars. your frame is already stiff enough. suspension upgrades will do WAY more then frame stiffeners.
everyone knows the saying you are only as strong as your weakest link. so start at the weakest link. at 160k, your bushings are probably on their last leg. dried up and useless. your BEST bet right now is new bushing kit. ask anyone that's done a new bushing kit. even at much lower miles like say 50k, they won't stop talking about how much better the car felt. everyone that has a rear sway bar loves it. so that would be your next option. and tires of course... those would be the first 3 things i would do in your situation. shocks and springs will no doubt help, but those 3 things will help out the most. as for what shocks and springs to go with...... you have to decide for yourself. however, when and if you do lower the lude, a camber kit 9 times out of 10 is not needed. what is in fact needed is an alignment. that will prevent more premature tire wear then a camber kit.... and its cheaper. unless you want to lower more then 1.5 inches..... which is useless. looks like ass and rides like ass. especially since you want something for daily driving.
New bushings kit sounds like a great idea, should I get those through mike or HAP.com? I wasn't looking at going lower than 1.5'' so I deff wont be needing a chamber kit, noiiceeeee. I will get an alignment just after the installation. How much should I be looking at installation wise? Any other suggestions out there from people who felt the way I do about there next suspension set up? are you happy with your discussion? why/ why aren't you? God I love this site, hence why I joined and paid the fee even before I had a lude, thank you all!
I have Tein H-tech springs and KYB GR2 shocks. It's not too stiff, but can be annoying due to Michigan roads. Holy hell do they suck.
with a .75" drop you'll need camber kits front and rear if you're looking to stay w/in alignment spec. I did. Plan on getting them and the cost of an alignment.
Go with OEM bushings. I replaced most of my bushings (the upper control arm bushings aren't available oem w/o buying the whole arm). They're a pain. Have a shop do it.
__________________
**Erik**
1998 base 5spd
Nordic Mist Metallic
JDM H22A
JDM Type S intake
Hondata IM insulator
Tein H-tech w/ KYB GR2
Honestly, if you are mostly care about the ride on the street and only occasionally autocross I would stick with Koni's and springs like Tein S-tech or Tanabe GF210. I've been rinding around for two+ years on Koni/GC w/ 400/400 springs and it can get tiring after a while, especially in the the winter. With "sport" springs you will get a stiffer but still comfortable ride. The caveat is that when you do autocross the car will still be an understeering pig.
If it's cornering ability you really want (with some sacrifice to comfort) tehn my suggestion would be to get the Koni/GC with 380/380 springs. Why 380? 450 is about the max the "off-the-shelf" Koni shock can handle. I choose 400/400 b/c I didn't want to push the limits of the shocks. The car is understeer to neutral for cornering balance. The thing the 380 springs get you is that they are custom wound for GC with "barrel" shape. The barrel shape helps prevent the spring from rubbing the coilover sleeve and helps with prevent coil bind issues. I have a worn spot on my sleeve where the spring rubs, and you can hear it when it happens.
If you go any more aggressive then that you should get the shocks RACE valved. Koni will install valving that is designed to handle spring rates of up to 1200 lbs. They will also shorten the body of the shocks to help prevent bottoming out (more about that in a second). It's pretty hardcore stuff, but they do work nicely. I do have an issue with the front end bouncing like it's bottoming out on the bumpstop sometimes. My Konis are still off-the-shelf.
As for camber don't worry about it. With the average drop you will only have about -1.2° of camber. No big deal and the camber actually helps with cornering grip. I have camber kits but only so I could get -2.5°. You will might get a small "chamfer" on the inside of your tire from the camber. But keep rotating the tires and it won't be a big deal at all. Just make sure you get re-aligned after the parts go on to fix your toe. Toe kills tires.
__________________ Paul
1990 Mazda Miata - #181 STS2
1999 Crystal Blue Base - Retired to Daily Driver
with a .75" drop you'll need camber kits front and rear if you're looking to stay w/in alignment spec. I did. Plan on getting them and the cost of an alignment.
i disagree with this statement. yea i guess if you want to stay with in OEM specs. but like stated by paulyg, a bit of negative camber actually improves handling. its the whole concept behind the double wishbone suspension. when you lower the car its not JUST camber that gets thrown off. the toe gets thrown off too. think about it. lowering the car gives you negative camber, so the car thinks it is always in a turn that will actually kick the toe in a little bit. a simple alignment fixes this problem.
and i know what you are all thinking, then why is it when people install camber kits it improves their tire life? what happens when you install the camber kit, you get an alignment right??? the toe will automatically be adjusted in the alignment. and people automatically assume it was the camber kit. i guarantee just a simple alignment will get rid of 90% of your tire wear problems after lowering. then why are camber kits available you ask? they are for the ability to fine tune the car for maximum handling with minimal tire wear. yes camber kits do improve tire wear... but more so in race settings where you want to squeeze every lap possible out of your tires. around town, they're not needed.
as for the bushings, i do suggest going with polyurethane. i know you're not looking for an extreme handling machine. but they will last longer and they perform way better and will give you a significant edge. but OEM will do fine for your application. oh and i would do the shocks and springs yourself. its easy, as long as you have the right tools. and its much more rewarding to know that you made an improvement on your car.
as for the bushings, i do suggest going with polyurethane. i know you're not looking for an extreme handling machine. but they will last longer and they perform way better and will give you a significant edge. but OEM will do fine for your application. oh and i would do the shocks and springs yourself. its easy, as long as you have the right tools. and its much more rewarding to know that you made an improvement on your car.
Would you suggest swapping the bushings yourself as well, or is this just a plain pain in the ass to do & would be much easier/beneficial to have a shop do them?
the Energy Suspension bushings have been said to 'bind' from time to time. Maybe it's just a myth, but since it's labor intensive, I didn't want to do a bushing job again (much less pay for it), nor did I want to have to live with suspension issues. Do some searching on it, but it was recommended to me to go OEM with bushings. I don't regret it one bit.
If I were you I'd take the suspension components off yourself and take them to a shop with a hydraulic press to unseat the old and seat the new bushings. Do as much work as you can yourself.
As far as the alignment on my prelude goes. I did the alignment myself at the school I was at and put everything in specification (except rear camber). The fronts had camber kits (adjustable ball joints), and I left the rears without camber kits, as I was being cheap at the time. Like I said, everything was in spec (except for rear camber) and even with rotating every 6k, I get noticeable wear on the inside of my tires. Call me crazy, but it's true.
__________________
**Erik**
1998 base 5spd
Nordic Mist Metallic
JDM H22A
JDM Type S intake
Hondata IM insulator
Tein H-tech w/ KYB GR2
Im sure ill have wear but is it enough to severely shorten the life of my toyo proxies? will another alignment be neccessary if i buy some 05-06 rsx type s rims? will these wear even faster?
Im sure ill have wear but is it enough to severely shorten the life of my toyo proxies? will another alignment be neccessary if i buy some 05-06 rsx type s rims? will these wear even faster?
you shouldnt experience severe uneven thread wear unless you have a low drop (+2"). tires are the best upgrade. theres so much that goes into how your car handles. just gotta start reading up.
you shouldnt experience severe uneven thread wear unless you have a low drop (+2"). tires are the best upgrade. theres so much that goes into how your car handles. just gotta start reading up.
You are definitely going to want to replace the bushings when you do the suspension install. You can go either way with the bushings, the polyurethane bushings are stiffer than stock, but they do wear out quicker. I used OEM bushings everywhere I could, then used ES poly bushings where there was not OEM replacement.
paulg makes a good point about the spring rates (GC vs. progressive spring like the Tanabe GF210 or Tein S). The ride is trying at times with the GC's. I purchased some 200# springs to try on the rear of the car hoping to eliminate the harsh ride, we'll see, it will be a month or so before I get the car back together though... I'll report on it what I do finish it up, unfortunately, not soon enough to help you it seems.
Camber kits... you don't need them with the drop you are planning on (1.5"), just to repeat what everyone else is saying, camber isn't going to hurt the tire as much as the toe setting is going to (that is why you need an alignment done).
So, I say OEM bushings, softer springs (Tein S or GF210's), and no camber kit....
You are definitely going to want to replace the bushings when you do the suspension install. You can go either way with the bushings, the polyurethane bushings are stiffer than stock, but they do wear out quicker. I used OEM bushings everywhere I could, then used ES poly bushings where there was not OEM replacement.
paulg makes a good point about the spring rates (GC vs. progressive spring like the Tanabe GF210 or Tein S). The ride is trying at times with the GC's. I purchased some 200# springs to try on the rear of the car hoping to eliminate the harsh ride, we'll see, it will be a month or so before I get the car back together though... I'll report on it what I do finish it up, unfortunately, not soon enough to help you it seems.
Camber kits... you don't need them with the drop you are planning on (1.5"), just to repeat what everyone else is saying, camber isn't going to hurt the tire as much as the toe setting is going to (that is why you need an alignment done).
So, I say OEM bushings, softer springs (Tein S or GF210's), and no camber kit....
Thank you. I hope to make a decision by tomorrow, and get these installed sometime next week.
I have almost the same requirements to suspension as the author of the topic:
1) Comfortable ride
2) Little or no drop
3) Reduced understeer, ideally neutral balance both during cornering and hard braking in corners
4) Improved overall handling in autocross
Based on extensive analysis of the subject I came to the following setup:
1) Koni yellow shocks
2) Tein H.Tech springs
3) Progressive rear sway bar
Here are my questions:
1) When deciding between shocks+springs and shocks+bar, which combination gives the most effect compared to shocks+springs+bar?
2) Which elements or combination increases skidpad grip most?
3) Does koni allow to lower stock springs (preload them), thus increasing effective spring rate?
4) What are recommended koni adjustments given such requirements? I know it may be a matter of personal preference. Also I've read about adjustment procedure. But anyway let's assume I don't have ability to perform the procedure, what are your recommendations?
Also won't I have any installation problems (especially sway bar) for 5th gen 4WS?
I have almost the same requirements to suspension as the author of the topic:
1) Comfortable ride
2) Little or no drop
3) Reduced understeer, ideally neutral balance both during cornering and hard braking in corners
4) Improved overall handling in autocross
Based on extensive analysis of the subject I came to the following setup:
1) Koni yellow shocks
2) Tein H.Tech springs
3) Progressive rear sway bar
I think this is a great street setup and will definitely improve the handling of the car. If you get serious about autocrossing you are going to need more camber & stiffer springs for that matter, but that isn't going to meet your criteria, I think you'll be happy with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvovin
Here are my questions:
1) When deciding between shocks+springs and shocks+bar, which combination gives the most effect compared to shocks+springs+bar?
Are are you attempting to be effective at?
The rear sway bar will add more oversteer (reduce understeer), will retain the stock ride feel, but it will not add any additional camber from lowering.
The springs will add more camber, lower the CG, firm up the ride some. I would have to see some calculations on the sway bar, but I would guess that the springs rates of the H.Tech's (220F/180R) w/ stock sway bars aren't going to change the balance of the car as much as adding the Progress rear sway bar to the stock springs. However, you are going to be replacing the shocks, so you might as well do the springs at the same time so you don't have to do the suspension installation and alignment twice. The rear sway bar is bolt-on application that takes much less time and an alignment doesn't need to be done after installation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvovin
2) Which elements or combination increases skidpad grip most?
It's a toss up in my eyes, you would need to do some testing to figure it out. Some time behind the wheel is going to make either of these setups faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvovin
3) Does koni allow to lower stock springs (preload them), thus increasing effective spring rate?
The stock spring is already preloaded, you are going to have to preload the stock spring a decent amount before you preload it with more load than what the car's weight puts on it when on the ground.
The normal Konis have 3 slots for spring perch location (I believe they are .25" above, stock height, and .25" below), none of these are going to change the effective spring rate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvovin
4) What are recommended koni adjustments given such requirements? I know it may be a matter of personal preference. Also I've read about adjustment procedure. But anyway let's assume I don't have ability to perform the procedure, what are your recommendations?
The Koni Sports (as referred to as 'yellows') are adjustable (rebound only) via a knob on the top of the shocks, you will have the ability to adjust them, no doubt.
The exact adjustment is dependent on the user, however, the same ideas of springs and sway bars apply to the shock adjustment. A softer setting will increase grip, stiffer will reduce grip. You do need to make sure that you don't get to the point of having too soft of a setting that the shock can't do it's designed purpose (controlling the spring). You typically wouldn't have this issue with Koni Sports used with H.Tech springs.
So, the shock setting that would induce the most oversteer would be full soft on the front and full stiff on the rear. The setting which would induce the most understeer would be full stiff front and full soft rear. Note: It is not advised to have the shock adjustment all of that way to one end of the spectrum, you should back it away at least an 1/8th of a turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvovin
Also won't I have any installation problems (especially sway bar) for 5th gen 4WS?
Can't help you there, never dealt with a 4WS model.
Neutral balance during cornering and braking.
I'd like to have responsive front-end to be able to make high-speed turns.
But at the same time I wouldn't expect car to rotate when hitting brakes in a corner.
Complete contradiction or not?
Quote:
The rear sway bar will add more oversteer (reduce understeer), will retain the stock ride feel, but it will not add any additional camber from lowering.
The main question is does it reduce understeer to the point where it becomes neutral, or introduces unnecessary oversteer.
So if I chose shocks+spring, would I still get understeer in most situations? Would shocks adjustment reduce it?
If I chose shocks+bar, would I get unnecessary oversteer? Will shocks adjustment reduce it?
And depending on pros/cons in each case, which solution would be more preferrable?
Quote:
So, the shock setting that would induce the most oversteer would be full soft on the front
