I finally had the time to install the SMSP and all the exhaust components I had collected. See my other thread for more info.
First, don't ask me how the SMSP header is. I'm not yet ready to give a full review of the header, since there are a few other things to work out on my car first. I just had a timing belt installed, which I think is on WAY too tight (i have the supercharger whine even at idle), and the car has been feeling restrained ever since. Want to get that fixed first. Then I have to wire up my VAFC2. Then dyno. So it will be a while before you see dyno results.
My initial impression of the header is that it definitely increases power at and after VTEC. The torque curve feels like it was smoothened out. Low and midrange power feel like they've decreased. We'll see.
Now, for the exhaust components I chose to go along with the SMSP. Here's a pic of the install:
My objective was to design the quietest straight through exhaust possible. Worked a lot with Daemione in choosing the components. Here's full parts list:
- SMSP Header
- Carsound 94406 Cat with built in resonator (from fulllineexhaust.com)
- 2 Magnaflow 1446 14" resonators (from fulllineexhaust.com)
- Magnaflow 14246 5x8x18" muffler (from fullineexhaust)
- 2 90 degree SS bends, 2 45 degree SS bends, and 3 ft of straight stainless steel tubing (from Vertex Industries, Inc.)
As you can see, all these parts fit in there no problem at all, so we know an install with these components is perfectly possible. Running the car, there is absolutely no rubbing, vibrating, or clanging. Now, for those considering these components for a similar install, here's the
Review of the exhaust:
At idle:
Deep smooth constant bass tone, slightly louder than stock. Very nice.
Revving in neutral:
Deep bass increases in pitch and volume. Never gets raspy or farty, remains silky smooth. Significantly louder than stock, but not obnoxiously loud.
Cruising:
Ranges from silent to very slight bass drone while cruising at a constant speed, no matter what the speed is. Slight drone appears at 70-80mph if the car is working hard to maintain speed. Otherwise it is pretty much like the Apexi WS, being nearly silent to having a pleasing almost imperceptible bass hum.
Accelerating:
Bass acquires a booming quality on acceleration, and volume of bass increases. Again, does not become raspy, bass just becomes boomier and louder. This happens with any acceleration, no matter how slight. Any minimal work the car does, the bass drone appears and booming increases. Booming is loud.
Decelerating:
Letting off the accelerator at any speeds also result in moderate bass boom. If cruising, exhaust is silent; when let off accelerator, bass booms. A little loud for my taste, but still pleasing. Could definitely live with it.
My overall conclusion? From what I've heard, this setup is probably very similar to the Thermal, mostly because of the awesome deep bass. In spite of its quality (never raspy or obnoxious), this setup is still probably not acceptable to me, although will probably be fine with many people. I love the deepness of it, but what kills it for me is its booming quality on any acceleration no matter how slight. The booming does draw attention, so it's a no go in my book.
I put a lot of though into alternatives and made many measurements. The main idea was to add the Moroso Spiral Flow muffler/resonator, which by some accounts on the web removes drone. Also shaped like a 4" dia bullet. However, in our cars, these is no space to add this either after the 2nd 90 degree turn, or the axle back section. You could, but the resonator will hang way too low. I could replace one of the magnaflow resonators with the moroso, but there's no guarantee this will work.
I will definitely now add dual resonated tips to hopefully quiet it down some, have ordered it from californiamufflers.com.
Next step: I'm now very heavily considering the Hytech twin loop muffler instead of the magnaflow can. Will wait for Artifex's review hopefully coming soon!
the bends right before the muffler are fine, and the geometry actually worked out perfectly. the two welds you see are two 45s together in an S, this may be what's looking crappy to you. unfortunately none of these are TIG welds; that would have cost a fortune.
My understanding of resonators is that they tend to work on a few frequencies depending on the size and shape. I would think two resonators of the same size/design would not be more effective than two resonators of different design.
Try replacing one of the magnaflows with a moroso.
Also, no way around it, but baffled mufflers are always quieter than straight-through.
Like your photographic technique!
Was it still on lifts?
yeah alphajesse, you may be right. Much earlier on, Daemione and I were considering your point, and I think we ended up concluding that deadening is directly proportional to just the entire length of resonator. More length (sound absorbing surface area) = less sound. so that's why i chose what i did. but this was by no means a definitive conclusion. maybe i should replace one of the magnaflows with the spiral flow?
Anybody else know more about this than I do? Dave (SMSP), any theory you could teach us about, and any concrete suggestions for this particular case?
To me, using the moroso would definitely be preferable and cheaper than getting the Hytech twin loop. It would definitely add some back pressure too, which I wonder might help with restoring some of the low-midrange loss i'm subjectively feeling.
If someone can give me a good rationale, i'll swap one of the magnaflows for a moroso.
btw, yes, it was on lifts, and using a baffled system on the SMSP would be a crime!
Originally posted by devtec It would definitely add some back pressure too, which I wonder might help with restoring some of the low-midrange loss i'm subjectively feeling.
You don't ever want more back pressure. Wait until you tune it and hopefully the proper a/f ratio will regain your low-midrange back.
Originally posted by devtec yeah alphajesse, you may be right. Much earlier on, Daemione and I were considering your point, and I think we ended up concluding that deadening is directly proportional to just the entire length of resonator. More length (sound absorbing surface area) = less sound. so that's why i chose what i did. but this was by no means a definitive conclusion. maybe i should replace one of the magnaflows with the spiral flow?
Anybody else know more about this than I do? Dave (SMSP), any theory you could teach us about, and any concrete suggestions for this particular case?
To me, using the moroso would definitely be preferable and cheaper than getting the Hytech twin loop. It would definitely add some back pressure too, which I wonder might help with restoring some of the low-midrange loss i'm subjectively feeling.
If someone can give me a good rationale, i'll swap one of the magnaflows for a moroso.
btw, yes, it was on lifts, and using a baffled system on the SMSP would be a crime!
Here's my rationale- Resonators tend to be tuned to eliminate specific frequencies (hence "RESONATOR") while mufflers are designed to reduce sound levels at all frequencies. Since you have two identical resonators, you are duplicating (unnesacarily) functionality. Replacing one of the magnaflows with a second resonator of different design will probably realize a positive change in sound damping.
I suggest replacing the second magnaflow, as I have heard from several moroso users that they don't fare too well being right off of the header (though this was on boosted cars running test pipes.)
alpha, could you please put me in touch with these other moroso users, or find out for me what exactly they think of the spiral flow? I'd like to know in more detail how exactly they alter the exhaust sound, and if they would accomplish the reduction in booming/droning that I am looking for. I've also heard the same thing from other forums that the spiral flows do better downstream.
Well the guy I know with one has a JSRC lude. He liked the sound reduction of the moroso, but it broke on him.
His was mounted in place of the cat on a car that has really high EGTs, but after removing the first part that turned into a rattle, it still works well, and he likes it.
He thinks it would have been fine if it was a bit farther from his (coated) header.
He ultimately replaced his straight-through muffler with a chambered muffler, though as his car is SUPER noisy.
Dev, looks good - and good review of the sound quality as well. Too bad it didn't come out as quiet as we both hoped it would.
I see you ended up going with the resonated cat as well, very cool. Fit with no problems, I see. How much did fitting the O2 bungs on cost? Actually - where's your primary O2 sensor? I don't see it in the picture.
With the resonated tips, how far are they going to stick out past the bumper? californiamuffler has them listed as 9" tips . . . . seems like that'd stick out pretty far using the 18" magnaflow can back there.
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajesse Here's my rationale- Resonators tend to be tuned to eliminate specific frequencies (hence "RESONATOR") while mufflers are designed to reduce sound levels at all frequencies. Since you have two identical resonators, you are duplicating (unnesacarily) functionality. Replacing one of the magnaflows with a second resonator of different design will probably realize a positive change in sound damping.
Well, the thing is - the magnaflow resonators don't actually use resonation to cancel frequencies. They're just smaller diameter versions of their mufflers, which use the absorption (sp?) technique.
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Originally posted by devtec alpha, could you please put me in touch with these other moroso users, or find out for me what exactly they think of the spiral flow? I'd like to know in more detail how exactly they alter the exhaust sound, and if they would accomplish the reduction in booming/droning that I am looking for. I've also heard the same thing from other forums that the spiral flows do better downstream.
thanks,
dev
I think the issue is not that the Moroso performs poorly, but that it falls apart. Personally, I would not put it on any car, because I believe the welds are crap. Check this: http://www.theoldone.com/forum/topic...chTerms=moroso
If it were me I would not want to chance it. It it breaks, you have to unbolt/cut your exhaust out and put a new one in, which is $$$ to your installer.
My information as far as resonators go is that longer is better. I am using a 30" cherry bomb (a Magnaflow Thrush glasspack), which does a reasonably good job. I can't really tell until I get the new muffler on.
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Originally posted by Artifex I think the issue is not that the Moroso performs poorly, but that it falls apart. Personally, I would not put it on any car, because I believe the welds are crap. Check this: http://www.theoldone.com/forum/topic...chTerms=moroso
Yeah, that's what I've heard as well (basically from the same source(s). Sucks that there's only a small sample size to base it on, though. I wonder how much it would help mounting it downstream of the cat & primary resonator.
I'm still undecided as to whether I'm going to use mine.
Quote:
My information as far as resonators go is that longer is better. I am using a 30" cherry bomb (a Magnaflow Thrush glasspack), which does a reasonably good job. I can't really tell until I get the new muffler on.
So you've been driving w/ just the glasspack? What's that like? Or do you still have your cruddy muffler on?
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Originally posted by Daemione So you've been driving w/ just the glasspack? What's that like? Or do you still have your cruddy muffler on?
Crappy muffler is still there. It looks like the holdup now is the stupid exhaust tip vendor. He just dropped something in the mail today that he should have mailed last Friday. I probably won't get the part until Monday of next week, which is really going to suck. I was hoping for an exhaust install on Friday.
More on topic for the original question though is that fact that a longer glasspack definitely helps. It lowered the tone compared to the 20" one I had on originally. I can't say what the difference would be with two smaller ones though.
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daemione, yeah, the tips are 9" long, but luckily we were able to place the magnaflow can a lot further forward than I thought. the tip you see on now is 7.25", and actually sticks out shorter than stock. So i probably have about 8" to work with, and figure I can easily cut off 1-2" of the exhaust tip inlet. it should work out perfectly, actually.
but....
that's if i decide to stick with the magnaflow can. cause I may still do the hytech muffler. so crazy that this will add over $400 to the cost, but i guess that's what has to be done to get what we want. (and this will be my last car fling for a while ).
but if we can scrounge up more evidence, maybe i will try replacing the 2nd magnaflow 4" resonator with the moroso. i've seen a handful of 90% positive reviews on them, mostly from domestic truck (f150) and car (corvette, trans am) forums. most say it does quiet down things, and one said it got rid of highway drone.
FWIW, none of them mentioned the spiral flow falling apart. for some reason, i can't get into that old one forum to see what you guys are talking about.
we need more data!!! daemione, what will your decision to use the moroso depend on?
re the tips again, i'm actually not expecting them to do that much. from what i've read, resonated tips are better at getting rid of high pitched sounds, reducing the raspiness of the exhaust and resulting in a more "mellow" tone. sound reduction is via reducing high pitched frequencies, not really by reducing overall volume. i think. since my system is all bass, it may not do much. but at least i'll get my dual tips.
the primary o2 sensor actually inserts on the SMSP right before the flange leading to the cat. good eye dave, ahah. the pic of that section in the composite i made was actually taken midway through, before i wired up the sensors at the end. but on the smsp, about an inch and a half from that flange ends up being exactly the stock location.
for those building a custom exhaust, do not purchase your hardware mail order, prices are inflated at least 3 if not 10 fold. i got my flanges and o2 bung for just a few dollars a piece at a local muffler shop. call around or even just stop by. lots of work but worth it.
last thing, if the issue with the moroso is durability, then an alternative is the Twister made by flopro (flopro.com/twister). it's the same damn thing. don't know if its welds are better, but at least it's an alternative. cheaper, too (34.95). daemione, i thought you said the welds look pretty good on yours...
Originally posted by devtec daemione, i thought you said the welds look pretty good on yours...
Naw, they're only okay . . . .
The welds on my Magnaflow muffler are much cleaner.
But I don't think anyone's had a major spot like that break - the problems have been with the fins inside. And there's no real way to see inside to check the quality of those welds.
Right now I'm leaning toward getting the 18/24" resonator (instead of the 22/28"), and then fitting the moroso after it. Hopefully that'll be far enough downstream to prevent welds from failing as a result of heat.
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The people who have reported having them brake ran them right off the header.
The people who have had no problems run them farther back in the exhaust system.
Most imports have higher EGTs to begin with, forget about n2o, turbo or SCed cars. It should be fine if you replace the 2nd magnaflow with it.
It looks like the only difference on the flowpro is that the moroso has breaks in the 'spiral' where the flowpro is continous. I cannot make a judgement on which is better, though.
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