Ok this site has helped tremendously with NUMEROUS promblems I have had with my 98 Lude. I recently paid a performance shop to do the 5 speed swap and then had the entire top end rebuilt. This do to the timing tentioner breaking and causing valve damage. I have had the car back for around 2 months, a week ago it started ideling a little rougher then normal. Then it became hard to start to finally not starting at all. Check this out, after all day of trying to get it to start and changing distributor cap, wires, plugs and finaaly giving up, it started on the first try the next morning. It was rough but I was able to drive it 2 hours back to the performance shop. They tell me # 2 cyl wall is badly scortched, and that I need either a new bottom end or that they could possibly re-sleave it. Here are some questions I have:
1. on the prior repair bill they charged me to inspect the bottom end, would they be able to tell if it needed replaced then by just looking?
2. I need a cost effective way to get my car back on the road, but I think now is a good time to go to higher comp pistons, any suggestions on what to do?
3. They told me it couldnt be bored out because of the block type, what does that mean? And how can you find a good short block, nobody has one anywhere in Ohio.
I really dont know what to do at this point or what options I have, I am reaching out for Professional Prelude advise. Thanks!
sounds to me like you got taken by the shop that did your swap, why would they install if the bottom end was no good, and why did they get you an engine that was not in good shape? If you are gonna fix it you will gave to resleeve and re psiton, but if you are gonna do that you might as well as switch rods and do fully rebuild. what was the warranty o nt he engine and the work formt he shop you had it at, most engine come witgh a 30 -60 day start up warranty. what head work did you have on it? is the head built so much to where the block cannot keep up with it? what did they guys who did the work say? when they say you cannot bore it out they mean that you need to resleeve, ou r engine have sleeves that are replaceable, you cant really hone out the cylinder walls because on the open deck the sleeves kinda float and the spaces around them are used for cooling and what not. you can increase the size interior diameter of the sleeve but only to a certain size which i beleive is either 89 mm or 90mm. look into the stroker kits for the h22 and you will see what size is the max. keep your block but just rebuild it with higher compression pistons.
Last edited by bouckarooo; 04-19-2009 at 12:37 PM.
It seriously sounds like this shop is f*cking you over.
Ask your shop for the results of the following things in writing:
1. Compression test
2. Leakdown test
3. Pictures of the #2 cyl. Take pics yourself if they don't have a camera.
You shouldn't have had the head rebuilt; that must have cost $$$. It's much cheaper to buy a used head in good shape than to do that.
If the motor really is toast:
1. It's probably this shop that did the damage
2. Don't go with anything they said. Buy a low mileage JDM motor and drop it in. It's much cheaper than what they are talking about.
I think this shop is bending you over pretty hard dude.
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Ok here's the deal, I trusted this shop due to the caliber of work they are known for. The owner is also a business partner of mine. My friends are saying the same thing as you, here is the repair bill verbatim:
1. used set of H22 engine valves=$100
2. cyl head gasket set= $139
3. crankcase gasket set=$30
4. timing belt=$50.64
5. balance shaft belt=$20.57
6. timing tentioner=$85
7. intake plenum gasket=$9.30
8. OEM water pump=$81.08
9. Labor- remove engine,remove cyl head,INSPECT BOTTOM END OF ENGINE= 8hrs- $200
10. Labor- Replace Cyl head,head valves,replace headgasket,reinstall cyl head-8hrs-$200
11. Valve seat job=$125
12. Brigeport Milled Head=$65
13. Tranny and all parts for auto to manual swap=$1600
14. Exedy Performance stg 1 clutch=$235
15. coolent and oils...blah blah..=$55
16. Labor- remove auto tranny convert to manual= 12hrs-$300
17. OBD@ to OBD1 PNP harness=$100
18. Chipped ECU=$175
19. hoses belts plugs ect.=$50
I had to sell the JRC Supercharger to help get the bill paid= -$1100
TOTAL=$4900.34
So you notice that they did give me an unreal deal on the labor rate compared to their normal $92hr rate. You see where they charged me to inspect the bottom end, so would wear be noticable at that point. Keep in mind it ran fine for a few weeks, just with a little smoke on acceleration. The shop said it was common in all preludes and that out of the factory the bumpers would collect carbon like it did. There was a comment made bu them was disturbing to me and my dad. They said that it could have been caused by the JRSC when it was installed. NOTE: when I first got it was not hooked up and it did not smoke. Also they are not charging me for any labor up to this point and probably wont to finish the repair. So I feel like they are doing the right thing here but the money I am putting in to this car and not have any additional performance is rediculous. There is not a block to be found anywhere in Ohio that I found, only complete motors, the cheapest being a 112k motor for $1200! How would I know if I even found a "good" block if I did run across one?
With this said does this change your opinion or are they doing the "right" thing?
What would you do, I need the least expensive route but while we are at this point wouldnt it smarter to do the resleave and new pistons? If so any suggestions on specific parts?
I do appreciate the help guys!!
well, any shop can blow smoke in your ass to make themselves sound good. Was the head work stock or was it made to increase the power? Maybe the engine was ok when they put it in but after you did the head work the pistons could not take the compression(this is if you increase the head to be more aggressive) or something and it caused the bottom end to fail. Perhaps it was stock and the engine was in bad shape, but i know i ask for compression and leakdown tests for any engine. what is the startup warranty? are the guys going to fix it for you or are you gonna have to pay? they charged you for the bottom end inspection but what were the results of that inspection? how do you drive? do you rag on it? do you miss shifts? over rev at all? to make a determination you need to provide more info, but at this point i say it is the shops fault for getting you bad engine. for the amount you paid you could have bought a sir s with a lsd or a type s with atts
I drive aggressive. I will get the test results tomorrow, the shop didnt get me the motor, it was a rebuild from the old TB tentioner breaking and bending 3 valves so they say. My friends wonder how you bend valves in stead of breaking them? I understand that the valves would have to hit the piston in order to "bend" them right? So could that have done the damage? Funny thing is that they import engines as part of their daily business, so you would figure they would know that I could have got the SIR motor and tranny for same $. I cant be to much of a pecker due to the deal on the shop rate right?They are going to make the repair at no cost to me other then parts so I feel thats good faith. So just resleeve it and get higher comp. pistons? Could I use the Tpye S pistons I have reading about, or is there somthing better?
it is easier to bend a valve than most think, when you over rev what happens is the spring get compressed veryquickly, so fast that the valve just kind of falls lower than it should and it will make contact with the piston, depending on how bad the valve float is is the determingn factor if the piston hits it with enough force to break it not just bend it a little. surprised they wanted to fix it cuz it is cheaper to just replace the engine. perhaps they had the stock parts kicking around and they gave you good deal on labour rate as they knew they would make a killing off the parts. i dont know what to tell you man i just got a jdm h22a with a lsd out of a 96-97 prelude and the engine cost only 2600 canadien with the install it was only 3200 canadien. the other engine that was in it overevved and the compression on the last 2 cylinders is very low. i am getting it rebuilt but with 2.5 l stroker kit. the jdm engine is just a mule for now and was the chepaest solution i could come up with. look around before you go out and spend all your money.
sounds to me like you got taken by the shop that did your swap, why would they install if the bottom end was no good, and why did they get you an engine that was not in good shape? If you are gonna fix it you will gave to resleeve and re psiton, but if you are gonna do that you might as well as switch rods and do fully rebuild. what was the warranty o nt he engine and the work formt he shop you had it at, most engine come witgh a 30 -60 day start up warranty. what head work did you have on it? is the head built so much to where the block cannot keep up with it? what did they guys who did the work say? when they say you cannot bore it out they mean that you need to resleeve, ou r engine have sleeves that are replaceable, you cant really hone out the cylinder walls because on the open deck the sleeves kinda float and the spaces around them are used for cooling and what not. you can increase the size interior diameter of the sleeve but only to a certain size which i beleive is either 89 mm or 90mm. look into the stroker kits for the h22 and you will see what size is the max. keep your block but just rebuild it with higher compression pistons.
This isn't true, the reason you can't bore out the stock H22 FRM sleeves is because the material it's made out of has properties that will score it nasty if used with a traditional cylinder diamond-hone. The FRM material itself will only be compatible with pistons made to be compatible with it. These include USDM pistons, JDM pistons (which can have a compression ratio of 10.6:1 or 11:1) or Mahle pistons (they specify which ones are compatible with FRM sleeves and you can get them all the way up to 11:1 CR). For a quick history lesson, Honda originally designed these FRM sleeves to increase life span (see: reliability) and increase fuel economy due to the low friction that's developed between piston and cylinder wall. But it's a finicky material that will not respond well to increased temperatures or pressures. This is why everyone says don't turbocharge or put nitrous on an H22 engine.
I think that what Kevisan needs to do is to get this engine rebuilt by a reputable shop. I recommend Golden Eagle, but that's just me. Decide before you do the rebuild, what goal you want to have with this engine, do you want a crazy N/A build? Do you want to boost it? Or do you just want it back to stock? If you want N/A or boost, send it to Golden Eagle (they stand behind their work). If you want it to remain pretty much stock, then I suggest you buy a whole new (used) block. There are wrecked Preludes out there, even in Ohio, so check it out. Hell, for that price, you could really just buy another Prelude.
Tell us more about what you plan on doing and we can help you more.
I spoke with the shop today, the plan is to take the block to a reputable machine shop and have it re sleeved for $600. I am looking at the bb6 type S pistons they are a little less expensive. I get the feeling they will try and charge me labor on this but I will handle that if it turns up. They are telling me it looks like it will cost around $1200 to complete. Does any of this concern you? Any suggestions on rings based on this info?
My goal:
I would like some added performance while we are this far into the motor, however I am in a bit of a finacial slump after the last repair on the car. This will be my daily driver but I want it to have some balls.
I was curious if i should just buy a motor, use the bottom end then sell the top end and recover some cost? Is it really that much better to resleeve then just go with the new motor? Excuse me if I am redundant or sound dumb, I produce concerts not build cars, although I am always repairing a Honda! I went through 3 reman trannies ( provided by Honda MFG. "good faith")in my 98 Accord V6. I finally got rid of it, they all went out within 10k, traded it for a 95 Gt convert, auto:{ ...hated it, traded it for this Lude.
OMG, you didn't say before that you were running a JRSC.
I still didn't see anything about compression results. That is key. Or pictures, you don't have that either. This shop might know a few things, but I am still missing some important details to figure out WTF is up with your stuff.
The other problem here is that running a JRSC on the crappy stock electronics will probably break ringlands over time. It's very possible this is what happened, and only now you are seeing the results. This will show up as a compression problem, possible cylinder wall damage.
If all you want to do is run an N/A motor for reliability and do so cheaply, buy a used JDM shortblock. It's cheaper than sleeving, plus sleeving is known to fail on people (I still know people with sleeves sinking). If you invest more money into the block, you are playing with fire on a car that is probably your DD. If you want to make big power, this is the route you can take, but personally I would never do this on a DD car.
All you other forum people are making a big mistake telling this guy to build his block. For a daily driver, that's a very stupid idea. If you are building a pleasure car or a track car, then you can knock yourselves out. In this case, it's expensive and risky.
The rates they are charging do look very reasonable, but keep in mind they could be strining you along to put more money in their pockets.
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You are right about a built block being expensive, but as far as risky goes, I have been on my built block now for a year and a half and everything is still humming along like clockwork. Oil consumption is still around a quart or two every 3000 miles and there has been no unusual startup problems for me.
I didn't know if this was this guys DD, but if he's gonna have to rebuild it, he may as well do it all at once and strengthen the hell out of it for the future if performance is in his crystal ball. A JDM shortblock would be a good idea, but here is my question, if he puts an H22A (either the 10.6:1 CR or 11:1 CR) on it, which ECU would he run? The P5 (whatever our USDM one is) or the P13 (OBD1)? The reason I ask is because I know there are differences in the USDM head and the CR of the JDM block. Is the distributor different as well?
I say he should buy an engine and keep the other for a rebuild, yes it cost losts but if you break it up over time then eventually you will have two good engines, just in case this happens again. As for sleeve failing and what not that is all dependent on how they are put in, if they are done properly then they will work excellent if not then they wont. For the money you are gonna being paying either way you coulda just got a really crazy h22.
As for what i said about the sleeves earlier, just to specify i was talking about aftermarket iron ductile sleeves, not the the FRM ones; after market ones you can only increase the inner diameter to 90mm and this is what i was talking about as he was saying he would resleeve (i assumed he would be not using stock sleeve), perhaps i should have clarified in my previous answer.
When I aquired the car it did have a JRSC on it, a piggy back system. The owner of the shop, my friend and business partner told me to get because they could fix whatever it needed. Sha 5 thousand dollars later! Now I'm thinking that he should have known to look for that potential problem when the head was off before!??
I understand the common sense of buying another motor and rebuilding the other but I have the new top end on the current one. I would like to have a little more power available in the car if the re sleeve and Type S pistons would do so. I have not gotten the results of the leakdown test yet but I will. So I need to make sure that I get the FRM sleeves if I go with that route? I honestly can not find a short block anywhere here in Ohio. If you have any suggestions I'll move on them otherwise it sounds like I'm off to the machine shop. I'll try and get the results tomorrow.
Also they converted it to OBD1 and put a chipped ECU in. This was done after the JRSC was removed and sold for $1100. They sold it for me on Ebay. Just an FYI
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