My turn for the Type SH --> JDM H22A with M2B4/LSD Swap
Hey guys,
Well, after a botched job by my Chicagoland mechanic (who CPC members are no doubt familiar with), my 97 SH is in need of a new engine. Currently I'm getting 15mpg, have failed a leak down test, and eating a quart of oil every few weeks.
Rebuild or swap? I don't know, which would be more reliable? My primary goal is reliability, with maybe a little power gain from either the swap or rebuild.
Right now, leaning towards the swap. After scouring the forums and talking to Thatpreludeguy, Gerhard, and Marcucci, here is the plan:
*Swap Parts*
- JDM H22A Motor with M2B4 Trans with LSD ~$2,400.00 (shipped from hmotors)
- Intermediate shaft/midshaft from 5g base/4g ~$200.00 (just guessing ???)
- Vibrant Header $600.00
- Carsound Cat (already have) $0.00
- Mugen Exhaust (already have) $0.00
*Maintentance Parts to Go In*
- OEM Honda Valve cover gasket kit 31392 $34.08
- OEM Honda spark plug seals ??? ???
- OEM Honda valve grommets ??? ???
- OEM Honda Rear Main Seal ??? ???
- STR Cam Seal (already have) $0.00
- OEM Honda Cam Seals (on timing side) ??? ???
- OEM Honda Balancer shaft seal ??? ???
- OEM Honda Front main seal ??? ???
- OEM Honda Crank seal (right side) ??? ???
- OEM Honda Oil pump seals 31475/6 $5.50
- OEM Honda Oil pan gasket 31527 $2.16
- OEM Honda VTEC Solenoid seal ??? ???
- OEM Honda Distributor O-ring 4459 $1.21
- OEM Honda Oil Cooler O-ring 31504 $1.63
- OEM Honda (IM) Bypass valve gasket 32026 $6.19
- OEM Honda Throttle Body gasket 31982 $3.35
- OEM Honda IACV seal ??? ???
- OEM Honda Axle Seals (2) ??? $20.00
- OEM Honda Water pump 32281 $67.38
- OEM Honda Timing Belt 31436 $49.63
- OEM Honda Balance Shaft Belt 31429 $30.20
- OEM Honda Master Cylinder 33645 $83.79
- OEM Honda Master Cylinder seal 22841 $2.72
- OEM Honda Slave Cylinder 33646 $50.76
- OEM Honda Front Engine Mount 34085 $61.53 (I have a ES insert I want to get rid of)
- Distributor Cap 32419 $15.48
- Distributor Rotor 20296 $14.14
- Alternator belt 32351 $16.24
- Power Steering belt 34074 $11.13
(all prices and part numbers above are from majestic)
*Swap Details -- Parts to go from USDM H22A4 to JDM H22A to keep things OBDII*
- OBDII engine wiring harness
- TDC & CKP sensor (attached to OBDII oil pump)
- Oil pressure sensor
- Manual timing belt tensioner conversion (already have)
- Timing and balance belt sprockets
- Knock sensor
- VTEC solenoid pressure switch
- Fuel rail and injectors
- USDM Intake manifold and throttle body, with Hondata IM gasket (already have)
- Distributor
- Alternator and alternator bracket
- Ignition coil
- Coolant thermostat housing
- Crank shaft pullies/gears, all of them
- Oil pan, pump, and baffle
- Oil pan/transmission stiffener
- Oil pump housing
Well, that should be about it. I'm told I'm ok to use my stock SH ECU, and that I can simply pull the ATTS module to get rid of the ATTS dash light.
Questions:
1. Mistakes? Miss anything? Overkill?
2. How much have other people spent on this swap? It seems people are always saying ~3-4k, but adding up all of the above with an estimated labor of $1500 I'm getting 5-6k (including the vibrant header, LSD). what am I missing?
3. Given this price again... rebuild make more sense?
4. Anyone used those Full engine rebuild gasket kits for the H22 that are available for $150-200. I assume they are non-OEM. reliable?
Well, hope this can serve as a definitive guide for others planning to do this swap, as the other threads have petered out... Thanks in advance for help, comments, etc.
Questions:
1. Mistakes? Miss anything? Overkill?
2. How much have other people spent on this swap? It seems people are always saying ~3-4k, but adding up all of the above with an estimated labor of $1500 I'm getting 5-6k (including the vibrant header, LSD). what am I missing?
3. Given this price again... rebuild make more sense?
4. Anyone used those Full engine rebuild gasket kits for the H22 that are available for $150-200. I assume they are non-OEM. reliable?
1) Could be a little overkill. This is more than probably anyone has ever done all at once on a swap. Most people will just swap it in and worry about leaks or the t-belt or problems later. This definitely would provide you with the greatest insurance and least amount of worry later.
2) Most people do most of the work themselves, or pay someone just for the swap and don't do all the other work. Keep in mind that the belts, even the timing belt, is easy with the motor out, the seals are a PITA though they are less of a PITA with the motor out vs in.
3) I think with what you are looking at here, a rebuild would probably be a wash. For the price you will pay on all these seals alone, you could probably buy the top and bottom end seal kits. Figure in new pistons, rings, and bearings, and the machining and assembly cost... you would probably be looking at $5k total for a full rebuild and removal/install labor. The last few that I have done, depending on what was needed, ran between $4k and $5k.
4) I would stay way the hell away from any non-OEM gasket kits. They are probably OK, companies like Fel-pro and Mr. Gasket make decent stuff, but I can guarantee you they were not tested like OEM and will not last like OEM. It's not worth the risk. If you want gasket kits, get the Honda ones (bottom end and top end kits). They will probably be cheaper than buying what you have planned and you can always sell the extra ones (like the head gasket) that you don't need.
I used a Fel-pro head gasket on my B16A rebuild, and it never sealed...and ultimately resulted in my engine bearing damage. I would think the after market rubber gaskets would be okay, but I would definitely go with a OEM head gasket.
Just buy the entire Honda OEM upper and lower gasket kits. It includes *most* (not all) of the gaskets, o-rings, etc. that you'll need.
__________________
Billy - 98 Prelude
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Wait a minute... you are REMOVING the SH and putting in a NON-SH?
If that's the case I read your message wrong... That's not a huge deal.
If that's the case, you remove the ATTS computer, get a 5th Gen ECU (preferably manual, but an auto will do - since you can make it operate as a 5 speed ECU by moving the jumper), perform all your maintainence (T-Belts, seals, etc), get the base model drive shafts and the intermediate shaft w/ bracket [FROM A MANUAL BASE MODEL]....
...and all should be good.
The biggest issue will be the immobilizer... which unless you be the ECU, keys, and ICU from the same wreck... you'll need the dealer to reprogram the ECU/ICU pairing and then tell the ICU that your keys are authorized to start the car.
I would still recommend a lightened flywheel (A GOOD ONE in the 8lb range), and then the OEM clutch disc / pressure plate / throwout bearing.
Oh, and, I think, you are missing the motor mounts. I'm not certain, but I think the passenger's side and rear mounts will be different on the SH... (Now might be a good time to replace the motor mount inserts if you have an interest.)
[I'm just throwing things out for comsumption at this point...]
If you don't want to use an aftermarket intake, then use your 5th gen.... but clean it really well, and make sure the EGR ports are not blocked. The JDM engine has a slightly higher compression ratio, and if the EGR system is clogged your get codes throw left and right. (Indicating misfires...)
As I said before: Quaife...
If the transmission is not known to be flawless, you might want to have the someone scope it and look for some of the more common issues with reverse and 5th gear. (Why take it out again??)
That's all I've got for the moment... sorry about reading your message wrong.
I thought you were putting IN a SH engine, ATTS, etc.. Doh.
Just buy the entire Honda OEM upper and lower gasket kits. It includes *most* (not all) of the gaskets, o-rings, etc. that you'll need.
...and buy them on line.... it'll be cheaper... Interestingly, www.rockauto.com has most of the OEM kits and they are cheap (honest to god honda parts).
They also have aftermarket stuff...
...oh! Yeah, I almost forgot.... KEVLAR TIMING BELT. Put one of those in... (Costs less than the OEM belt from Honda...)
I actually just went through this same kind of decision. Check it out. A normal shop (ie, nonperformance) will likely charge extra to use a jdm motor because of all of the tedious little parts that need to be swapped over to make it OBDII compatible.
at this point i'm considering doing a Type S swap since labor and parts may be less than doing the regular JDM H22A--no OBDII conversion, and no need for 5g base axles. still working on pricing it out though to see if it's worth it. will let you guys know.
71dsp: do you know what exactly comes in the top and bottom end gaskets kits, and what you think I should replace in addition to those. Scouring the web and incorporating everything people have said resulted in the list you see above, which i think is overkill and getting expensive. i'd like to replace just the essentials.
gerhard: thanks for all your tips... haha, no problem. yeah thanks for letting me know about the immobilizer issue. wonder how I'd get it to the dealer, would suck to have to tow just for that! i already have a 12lb flywheel and the Type S intake. Also, where did you get your kevlar timing belt for that cheap??? as above, the oem belt is $50 from majestic, and the only kevlar belt i see is the Power Enterprise belt for $133.
With the JDM H22A swap you can still use the USDM SH ECU, I was running that for a while. I had most of those same seals replaced when I did my swap and never had a problem. My total cost was in the $5k range but that included the rental car for two weeks while the car was having the work done. It was well worth it to get it right, I'm more then a year through and 15k in miles with no issues at all.
I paid $2300 after tax for my motor and trans, that's a big piece right there. I didnt need a new slave and clutch master cylinders which is another 135, and think I got a better deal on the labor. Which is pretty close to where I was price wise. I looked at it as a year of new car payments and anything after that is my ROI.
EDIT: I prefer the natural feeling of a LSD more then the ATTS, the ATTS was nice but didnt allow for things like the vibrant header and OBD-I/Neptune that I did. It made more sense to go JDM H22A over the Type S for me.
I say you rent an engine crane and do it yourself.
(I bought one and got Joon and Specialique to give me a hand with the project. Joon did the T-Belt, and Spec gave me a hand with getting everything out and labeling things...)
would love to Gerhard, but not really an option for me--no garage, no tools, no time.... maybe someday.
for now i've pretty much decided to do the Type S motor and tranny. it's about $900 more total, but since I'm not ever going to be doing any internal engine work and it's more of a direct swap, i'll pay the extra now and then forget about it.
going to start a new thread on the Type S swap, thanks again all for your help.
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