I am going to be doing the JDM H22 swap into my 99 Prelude. I have done lots of searching so that I can minimize the redundant questions as much as possible. I suppose I will do a summary of my findings then ask questions.
- The JDM H22 is a closed deck design, obd1 (which is easier to tune), slightly higher compression (10.6:1, therefore greater gains from modification), and best…not very expensive. Both the USDM and JDM motors make 200 hp. Because of the 10.6:1 CR, the JDM H22A has slightly more torque (JDM = 161 lb-ft, USDM = 156 lb-ft). I've read that the JDM H22A is a more powerful motor because of a slightly better head design and the more aggressive ecu maps. Again, from reading, it looks like they dyno in the 170's in stock trim.
-I will be purchasing the Non-Type S/ Non SIR S-Spec motor from hmotorsonline.com.
I called them and they quoted me $1200 just for the longblock (full motor) + $200 for the JDM p13 ecu + $180-$190 shipping to Pennsylvania from California. I have not made the purchase yet simply because funds are not available at this time. I’ve called other places and this shipping quote blows others completely out of the water. If you want the JDM p13 ecu from them without buying the motor, it will run you $250.
-There are quite a few things that need to be swapped from your obd2 5th gen h22a4 motor to the obd1 jdm h22 motor to make the swap go nice and smooth. Here goes…
-The jdm intake manifold, from what I’ve read, is the same as the 5th gen intake manifold. If you would like to use the jdm intake manifold and throttle body, you will need a 4th gen firewall mounted MAF sensor. If you would like to avoid purchasing the 4th gen MAF sensor, then use the jdm intake manifold with the usdm throttle body by swapping your throttle body over to the jdm motor. However if you'd like to make things as simple as possible, just use your 5th gen intake manifold and throttle body.
- Here is the bulk of what you'll need to swap into the JDM H22A from your H22A4:
Oil pump housing + TDC & CKP sensor, distributor, alternator, ignition coil, thermostat housing, 5th gen obd2 engine wiring harness, alternator bracket, the knock sensor and the timing and balance belt sprockets.
-If you plan on running obd1, you'll need an obd1 ecu (JDM or USDM), 4th gen VTEC injectors (Peak & Hold 310 cc), an obd1 resistor pack (from any Honda), and an obd2a-obd1 ecu conversion harness.
-With your JDM H22 in your possession, there should be a few things that you should do to ensure that it has a long healthy life. First, obviously, you’ll need to swap all of the parts that I mentioned above from your H22A4 to your JDM H22. After you’ve swapped all of those parts over, I would recommend:
-Valve Adjustment tool to do a valve adjustment
-Aftermarket Cam seal (STR, Golden Eagle, Forum Racing, etc.)
-Valve Cover gasket set with spark plug well grommets (might as well do this since you’re going to be taking off the valve cover to replace the cam seal)
-OEM Honda Rear Main Seal (why not? They’re only $11-$12 from majestichonda.com)
-OEM Honda Water pump (I don’t think I need to give an explanation of why the water pump and timing belt are extremely important)
-OEM Honda Timing Belt
-OEM Honda Balance Shaft Belt (if you’re not going to keep your BS belt off)
-OEM Honda Manual Tensioner conversion (the whole thing can be purchased from importrp.com, they include every part necessary for the conversion for $89.00)
-Spark plugs, Distributor Cap, Distributor Rotor, and Spark plug wires.
-Both Accessory belts (alternator and power steering belts)
-While my motor and tranny is out, I might as well put some fun stuff in there:
-ACT Stage 2 HDSS disc with heavy-duty pressure plate
-Fidanza 9.6 lb flywheel
-Technafit SS Clutch line
-OEM Honda Slave Cylinder
-OEM Honda Axle Seals
-Energy Suspension Motor Mount Inserts
-Crank scraper (from crankscrapers.com)
-Hondata Thermal Intake Manifold Gasket
-With the motor back in the car:
-New Oil and Oil Filter
-New Coolant
-New Tranny Fluid
-This will be all you need, with the exception of the fun stuff, to make your JDM H22 compatible with your 5th gen lude.
-If you have experience in this area please post with corrections or good information and I will edit my post and add the new info.
-In my searching I primarily got my info from one person. I would like to give Keith all the credit for the knowledge that I have condensed and passed along in this thread. I also got a few tidbits from NotoriousSH. Thank you both!
Now for Questions:
-What is with the oil pan swapping thing? I don’t understand the point. Some people say don’t worry about it, then others will recommend it.
-From reading, I’ve gathered that the vacuum lines on the jdm intake manifold are a little different. Is there any truth to this? Those of you that have done this swap, what are your thoughts on this?
-I live in Pennsylvania and I need to be able to pass emissions. I plan on going obd1. How easy is it to pass emissions using my obd2 ecu? Will I need to swap things back and forth to make the obd2 ecu useable for passing emissions?
Nice synopsis of what's required, I never thought about axle seals on the trans and I'm yet to get a straight answer on the oil pans. My swap will start this Saturday and I'll be going from a SH to a JDM H22 w/JDM LSD trans and almost all of the recommendations you've mentioned.
I believe that if you run the setup you're talking about with your USDM OBD-II ECU you'll pass emissions fine. When you want to run OBD-I you can swap the ECU back via a OBD-II --> OBD-I harness from boomslang or Marcucci etc...
I'll try to pinpoint some of the lingering questions once my motor is out and they're working on it. I'll also have my old motor and trans back once its done so I'll be able to pull it apart and see what kind of shape its in.
awesome dude, thanks for the reply. i did notice that you had alot of posts about the jdm h22 subject. i was under the impression that using the obd2 ecu for emissions was just a matter of swapping obd1 ecu and coversion harness harness out for the obd2 ecu, but i just wanted to make sure. if anyone else can back this up for sure, i'll put that info in my original post. i'm glad to see i'm not the only one that doesn't quite understand the reason for swapping oil pans, haha. now i just wanna get some info about the intake manifold differences.
FYI, I got my JDM motor for $1150 shipped from Chicago. You can find JDM P13 ECUs for $150 but you are better off with a USDM as they don't have a speed limiter.
I've already stated before that if you decide to use the 4th gen oil pan, you'll need to also use baffle pan and oil pick up... use which ever you like.
The IMs are slightly difference with the 4th gen (JDM or USDM) has less vacuum lines available. The casting is slightly different on the runners (from the outside anyhow).
I took the opportunity to have my injectors balanced and cleaned. As well, I installed a UR crank pulley. New power steering and alternator belts would be worth considering. I also did a light port and polish on my exhaust ports with the trusty old dremel.
ERIC JAPAN ENGINE
3900 N ELSTON AVE, CHICAGO, IL 60618
Phone: (773) 463-8108
Speak to -> John Lin (english isn't the best so be patient)
I know 4-5 people who have bought H22As from them and had no problems. Plus, they even come with a warranty! Tell them Keith from St. Louis referred to and you'll be able to get that pricing. Sorry HMotorsonline.com... but they weren't very helpful when I bought a header from them after they told me there was no problems with it at. I received it with damaged to the downpipe after I specifically asked them if there was damage there.
I ended up using the 5th gen TB and IM... well, my TB is a P + P S2K TB... But the older 4th gen TBs have the map sensor mounted on the firewall where the 5th gens have it mounted on top of the TB. My 5th IM was port matched to my S2K TB as well so it was a no brainer. I would just use a 5th gen and save yourself the hassle of potential missing vacuum lines.
I had my injectors cleaned and balanced by Cruzin Performance http://www.cruzinperformance.com/. Rich (the owner) does a great job explaining the process and gives you a ton of details. They also document everything and they MUCH cheaper than RC Engineering. That said, I cleaned up the peak and hold injectors (since it came out of a 94 Prelude) and after getting the before and after statistics, I didn't really need to do it. Oh well... better safe than sorry I suppose.
FYI, I got my JDM motor for $1150 shipped from Chicago. You can find JDM P13 ECUs for $150 but you are better off with a USDM as they don't have a speed limiter.
I've already stated before that if you decide to use the 4th gen oil pan, you'll need to also use baffle pan and oil pick up... use which ever you like.
Keith
I think the question is why would you need to change the oil pan at all, what are the differences between a 4th gen and 5th gen oil pan. Or is this something that has to do with the swapping of the oil pump housings for the CKP and TDC sensors?
lol, i'm still with you thatpreludeguy! i still don't understand what would warrant changing them in the first place.
keith... i assume you used the 4th gen fuel rail and injectors then? i'm gonna call the motor place right now and then i'm gonna check out the cruizinperformance.com place. thanks again for all the info you're providing.
I think the question is why would you need to change the oil pan at all, what are the differences between a 4th gen and 5th gen oil pan. Or is this something that has to do with the swapping of the oil pump housings for the CKP and TDC sensors?
I opted to use my 5th gen oil pan... only because I had the 4th gen oil pickup and baffle pan already installed and the 5th gen oil pan covered Hondata bond, ready to install. There is no advantage in using either oil pan. Just a matter of preference.
I used my 5th gen fuel rail. Either should work just fine.
What about the "trans stiffner" I've read about in other threads, the 4th gens didnt have one and the 5th gens did? I remember there also being talk about the diffferences in pans when Moroso had first made their aftermarket one for our cars.
Sorry to be a PITA with questions but outside of seeing them both side by side I cant imagine whats different.
hell we should just get aol screen names and have a 3 way chat, lol! yea i read only a few things about the trans stiffner and nobody really said much about it.
keith, that cruzinperformance place is awesome! you weren't kidding about the amount of detail that they give you. that looks like a really good place.
and WOW you weren't lieing about john lin's english being "not-so-good"! lol! obviously, i just called him and he said he would send me the motor for $1150 including shipping which is awesome! no more hmotorsonline.com for me!
The 4Gens had a small engine stiffener that was on the side of the oil pan (the 4Gens also used a stamped steel pan). Along with the stiffener, the 4Gen used a stamped flywheel cover that provided no support at all. The 5Gen uses a cast engine stiffener that serves as the stiffener and the flywheel cover. Much more beefy. It will not work with a 4Gen pan (or the Mororo 4Gen pan replacement) as the stiffener bolts to the pan itself. You'll have to use a 5Gen cast pan to use the 5Gen engine stiffener. It's a much better design, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatPreludeGuy
What about the "trans stiffner" I've read about in other threads, the 4th gens didnt have one and the 5th gens did? I remember there also being talk about the diffferences in pans when Moroso had first made their aftermarket one for our cars.
Sorry to be a PITA with questions but outside of seeing them both side by side I cant imagine whats different.
Marren is also good. They did my 5Gen injectors. I just sent two sets of S2k injectors to Witch Hunter. We'll see how they are. They're about the same price as Marren ($15 per injector). I'll let you guys know how good Witch Hunter turns out.
Where did you get an S2k TB? I need one or two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith
I had my injectors cleaned and balanced by Cruzin Performance http://www.cruzinperformance.com/. Rich (the owner) does a great job explaining the process and gives you a ton of details. They also document everything and they MUCH cheaper than RC Engineering. That said, I cleaned up the peak and hold injectors (since it came out of a 94 Prelude) and after getting the before and after statistics, I didn't really need to do it. Oh well... better safe than sorry I suppose.
I got the S2K TB a LONG time ago... like 4 years ago. I found it on s2ki.com back when others didn't catch on that they would fit other Honda models. They range from $125-150 if you can find em.
so exactly where is the injector resistor box wired in? i assume close to the injectors, but i've never seen what the resistor box looks like and i've never heard people stating where they put them? i could search for this but, in the best interest of making this post a one stop deal, someone else with experience can post the relevant info.
So to make sure I'm on the same page the JDM injectors are P&H 310 cc and the USDM are saturation 280 cc types. The JDM injectors will work but would require the use of the 4th Gen resistor box to keep from frying the 5th Gen OBD-II ECU is this correct? If so at what point should you consider moving to the larger injectors, as in what mods or is this something that "plays" nicer with some of the standalone tuning units out there?
4th injectors are larger and are peak and hold injectors where 5th gen injectors are saturated. P+H injectors have a quicker response time vs the saturated (which tend to be cheaper).
You can use 4th gen ECU w/ saturated injectors (5th gen). But you can't use P+H injectors w/o a resistor box or else it will burn the ECU out.
You can find the resistor box on ebay for ~$25... that said, I have one.
So besides flowing more CC, the P&H should technically be better injector due to that faster response. I would think that anyone keeping an OBD-II setup would be best served sticking with the USDM injectors until they're at the point of trying to make every last gain count.
The thing that is subject to debate is the manner in which these injectors are being driven. From what I have read, the drivers in the Honda ECU are not true P&H drivers, hence the need for the ballast resistors. A true P&H driver delivers an initial high current signal to rapidly open the injector, then a lower amperage signal is used to keep the injector open. To do this correctly, the injector needs quite a bit of current, which is hampered by the use of ballast resistors to raise the impedance of the injectors to the range of saturated injectors. IIRC, a P&H injector ideally needs 4A to open rapidly. IIRC, the ballast resistors are about 8 ohms (or is it 6 to 12???) with the injector that's around 10 to 12 ohms, so just about 1A or a little over in current is supplied to the injector.
Anyway, after much research, I just use saturated injectors in my car. Stock 5Gen for now, but soon to be S2k injectors.
I'd be curious to see if there was a way to measure performance of a P&H injector on a Honda ECU with the ballast resistors and a similarly sized saturated injector on the same ECU. I'd imagine there would be very little, if any difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith
4th injectors are larger and are peak and hold injectors where 5th gen injectors are saturated. P+H injectors have a quicker response time vs the saturated (which tend to be cheaper).
You can use 4th gen ECU w/ saturated injectors (5th gen). But you can't use P+H injectors w/o a resistor box or else it will burn the ECU out.
You can find the resistor box on ebay for ~$25... that said, I have one.
Yes, but I'm sure that's because the injectors physically flow more, not just because they're P&H. I don't think that's what you're trying to say, but just clarifying. The 4Gen injectors are larger than the 5Gens, though. The S2k injectors are 370 cc/min, I think. Maybe 380 cc/min. They're at Witch Hunter right now, so I should have them back sometime next week.
One more question with the swap, there were some threads about both the crank pulley as well as the balancer shaft gears stating they should be swapped as well. Is this accurate and if so is there a reason behind it?
actutally yes, i do believe it is necessary. i wish i could find it, but i saw a post where someone actually compared both gears and there is a difference. i would like to hear some more info on this subject though...
so, basically, in order to make your jdm h22 obd2 you need to swap the oil pump housing, since you're swaping the oil pump housing you need to swap the balance belt and crank sprockets also. thanks again for the key info!
FYI, I got my JDM motor for $1150 shipped from Chicago. You can find JDM P13 ECUs for $150 but you are better off with a USDM as they don't have a speed limiter.
I've already stated before that if you decide to use the 4th gen oil pan, you'll need to also use baffle pan and oil pick up... use which ever you like.
The IMs are slightly difference with the 4th gen (JDM or USDM) has less vacuum lines available. The casting is slightly different on the runners (from the outside anyhow).
I took the opportunity to have my injectors balanced and cleaned. As well, I installed a UR crank pulley. New power steering and alternator belts would be worth considering. I also did a light port and polish on my exhaust ports with the trusty old dremel.
Keith
Is this price just for motor only?
Do you know how much it is for tranny, half shaft, and axles?
I need to get my car back running so i'm gonna need to do this soon.
__________________
Current rides
2004 Suzuka Blue S2000
Mods:
HKS Intake, J's 60rs, Megan Test pipe, Megan Coilovers, 16" TE37, Shift Beeper, Pre-04 Slave Cylinder
1997 Eucalyptus Green Pearl Prelude Type SH (In progress)
SH to JDM H22 conversion
Mugen header, Greddy EVO Exhaust, AEM Cold Air Intake, Avic D2, OEM Lip
Stuff to do: Suspension (i have knock)
im doing SH to JDM H22 conversion within a month.
thank god this thread came up when i needed, thanks for all the info guys.
So here is conclusion.
i have to change
1. Throttle body to 5th gen (or change both IM and TB)
2. Timing belt assembly including the oil pump housing.
3. Wire Harness for engine.
I do have number of goodies from my engine build.
I have question though....
what is downside if i just used OBD1 ECU.
What do i have to do in order to run OBD1.
We dont have emission nor safetly insepection in florida so i dont have to worry too much on it.
and 1 more question which header do i need to buy in order to bolt onto my exhaust system, because i believe SH header is different length than the base one...
thank you
__________________
Current rides
2004 Suzuka Blue S2000
Mods:
HKS Intake, J's 60rs, Megan Test pipe, Megan Coilovers, 16" TE37, Shift Beeper, Pre-04 Slave Cylinder
1997 Eucalyptus Green Pearl Prelude Type SH (In progress)
SH to JDM H22 conversion
Mugen header, Greddy EVO Exhaust, AEM Cold Air Intake, Avic D2, OEM Lip
Stuff to do: Suspension (i have knock)
im doing SH to JDM H22 conversion within a month.
thank god this thread came up when i needed, thanks for all the info guys.
So here is conclusion.
i have to change
1. Throttle body to 5th gen (or change both IM and TB)
2. Timing belt assembly including the oil pump housing.
3. Wire Harness for engine.
I do have number of goodies from my engine build.
I have question though....
what is downside if i just used OBD1 ECU.
What do i have to do in order to run OBD1.
We dont have emission nor safetly insepection in florida so i dont have to worry too much on it.
and 1 more question which header do i need to buy in order to bolt onto my exhaust system, because i believe SH header is different length than the base one...
thank you
If you can get away with not being OBD-II compliant thats probably an easier route to take, there would be no need to port over the OBD-II specific parts. You can keep the JDM distributor, ECU, injectors, oil pump etc...
As for the header/exhaust you dont need to change it when going from a SH to base since the differences are to accomodate the ATTS unit which you'll no longer have. My car is currently running a JDM H22A and the SH header/exhaust, the only fitment issue is the header mounting to the rear of the motor since they mount differently between the SH and the base models.
As a side note to this thread I'm currently taking pictures of everything OBD-II specific since they're all off my old motor now. Once I have all this swapped over correctly I'll also include pictures of the JDM pieces for comparison. Hopefully it'll help people identify why certain changes are necessary.
don't take this as the absolute truth, but i think you still need to swap over your obdII things becaue your engine harness won't connect to some of the obdI things, and you can't use the obd1 harness because i don't think it will work properly with the rest of your car. by all means, if this needs corrected, someone do the necessary correcting...
i think all you need to go obdI is the coversion harness, obdI ecu, and an injector box.
as far as downsides to obdI... if you don't have to emissions inspection to worry about, then there are no downsides
If you can get away with not being OBD-II compliant thats probably an easier route to take, there would be no need to port over the OBD-II specific parts. You can keep the JDM distributor, ECU, injectors, oil pump etc...
As for the header/exhaust you dont need to change it when going from a SH to base since the differences are to accomodate the ATTS unit which you'll no longer have. My car is currently running a JDM H22A and the SH header/exhaust, the only fitment issue is the header mounting to the rear of the motor since they mount differently between the SH and the base models.
As a side note to this thread I'm currently taking pictures of everything OBD-II specific since they're all off my old motor now. Once I have all this swapped over correctly I'll also include pictures of the JDM pieces for comparison. Hopefully it'll help people identify why certain changes are necessary.
Where did you buy the motor, half shaft and tanny from?
how much did you pay for it?
Did you get LSD?
and big question, does the SH axle line up with the base model w/ half shaft?
sorry for so many question, but i'm buying everything by end of this weekend so i want to get everything right.
thank u in advance
__________________
Current rides
2004 Suzuka Blue S2000
Mods:
HKS Intake, J's 60rs, Megan Test pipe, Megan Coilovers, 16" TE37, Shift Beeper, Pre-04 Slave Cylinder
1997 Eucalyptus Green Pearl Prelude Type SH (In progress)
SH to JDM H22 conversion
Mugen header, Greddy EVO Exhaust, AEM Cold Air Intake, Avic D2, OEM Lip
Stuff to do: Suspension (i have knock)
Where did you buy the motor, half shaft and tanny from?
how much did you pay for it?
Did you get LSD?
and big question, does the SH axle line up with the base model w/ half shaft?
sorry for so many question, but i'm buying everything by end of this weekend so i want to get everything right.
thank u in advance
Motor and Trans from JDM Engine Depot in Kearny NJ, they work off ebay mostly. You need new axles since the SH ones wont fit (from what I understand) and if you buy a motor trans combo it should have the intermediate shaft with it. I paid $2650 for the JDM H22A and M2B4 (LSD) trans including taxes.
i think all you need to go obdI is the coversion harness, obdI ecu, and an injector box.
I can get the injector box off of E-bay from what I read, but what about the conversion harness and ECU. What ECU is most commonly used (usdm only), and where can I buy the conversion harness?
I have my JDM H22A1 long block in shipment from Noyan USA as I type. I'm excited reading all of this
haha, brought back from the dead... you can definitely get the conversion harness off of ebay too and same with the ecu. just use the usdm 4th gen ecu, it's a p13. also, www.boomslang.us/ would have the conversion harness too.
you guys wanna hear something funny, i never ended up getting the jdm h22. after further inspection from the honda dealer they told me it would not be necessary. i got things fixed.
Would I be right that the P13 doesn't control the IAB? If so I wouldn't go with it. The P72 is the only OBDI ecu that controls the IAB, right? Would I also be right in saying that converting to OBDI rather than maintaining OBDII is much easier when doing a JDM H22A1 swap?
Would I be right that the P13 doesn't control the IAB? If so I wouldn't go with it. The P72 is the only OBDI ecu that controls the IAB, right? Would I also be right in saying that converting to OBDI rather than maintaining OBDII is much easier when doing a JDM H22A1 swap?
I answered your posting in the N/A forum.
__________________
This space intentionally left blank.
what do you do with the oil pressure sensor?
on jdm engine, there is no sensor on the coil cooler.
it's the #20 in the diagram.
thanks
__________________
Current rides
2004 Suzuka Blue S2000
Mods:
HKS Intake, J's 60rs, Megan Test pipe, Megan Coilovers, 16" TE37, Shift Beeper, Pre-04 Slave Cylinder
1997 Eucalyptus Green Pearl Prelude Type SH (In progress)
SH to JDM H22 conversion
Mugen header, Greddy EVO Exhaust, AEM Cold Air Intake, Avic D2, OEM Lip
Stuff to do: Suspension (i have knock)
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But the older 4th gen TBs have the map sensor mounted on the firewall where the 5th gens have it mounted on top of the TB. My 5th IM was port matched to my S2K TB as well so it was a no brainer. I would just use a 5th gen and save yourself the hassle of potential missing vacuum lines.
There is no advantage in using either oil pan. Just a matter of preference.
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