I have a 98 Prelude and she is going under the knife soon and coilovers are something I want to do. (want to work on a better wheel alignment with less camber and set the car up for the auto-x track we have here locally).
My question is, Which coilovers are best?
I'm not interested in sleeves. I want to go with something that will give me great performance at the auto-x circuit as well as daily driven.
I have had a look at the FF Type 2 Coilovers and they look like nice units. They also have a plus of being able to adjust the damping of the coilover from the interior of the car with an additional unit (I always like added bonus stuff )
I also looked as the D2 coilovers.
The main difference I am seeing between the two designs is the monotube and dual tube designs. From what I understand the monotube design is more robust and will be better suited for serious track work and the dual tube design is geared towards comfort.
Is this a correct assumption?
Right now it looked lot any of the above 3 systems are getting good reviews from users.
For me (I know this may be useless to most) the electronic damper adjustment the Form Function coilovers offer makes them really attractive to me.
I also like the Tein products but there Flex system seems to offer all the same things that these other companies offer but at a higher price (possibly due to a better known branding?)
Is anyone on there running the Form Function setup on there car that can comment on there performance?
If you actually want something you can autoX and daily driven, that is a tough compromise. Do you track also or just autoX. I can tell you first hand that F&F, D2, F2, megan, and Tein is complete crap. F&F, D2, F2 or whatever is all the same garbage. Any real shock will not have more than 5 levels of damping adjustment. I cannot find the dyno charts right now but if you can find it, the dyno charts tell the truth that these "adjustments" do absolutely nothing. Tein is i would say not complete garbage but their shocks are way underdamped. I have the Tein Flex on my lude that gets daily driven, autoX and tracked about 10-15 events per year. I can tell you that that suspension is crap. It's too stiff for street, but way too soft and way too underdamped for track. If you don't mind the wait, you should check out AMR Engineering. They will custom build you a set of suspension with the correct spring rates and valved correctly for what you will use it for.
Friend has Tein SS with EDFC on his IS350 and he DD's it. The EDFC allows full control of the dampening inside your car. The biggest issue is actually the installation for the EDFC as that will cost the most. Definitely a very cool unit and works very well.
I have a 98 Prelude and she is going under the knife soon and coilovers are something I want to do. (want to work on a better wheel alignment with less camber and set the car up for the auto-x track we have here locally).
My question is, Which coilovers are best?
I'm not interested in sleeves. I want to go with something that will give me great performance at the auto-x circuit as well as daily driven.
I have had a look at the FF Type 2 Coilovers and they look like nice units. They also have a plus of being able to adjust the damping of the coilover from the interior of the car with an additional unit (I always like added bonus stuff )
I also looked as the D2 coilovers.
The main difference I am seeing between the two designs is the monotube and dual tube designs. From what I understand the monotube design is more robust and will be better suited for serious track work and the dual tube design is geared towards comfort.
Is this a correct assumption?
Opinions are greatly appreciated.
Tim
That is correct, where the mono tube and dual tube designs will differ your ability to autox since one is stronger vs the other. I cannot remember exactly which of the two is the ideal for autox types of driving - I have Tein Super Streets, and I know whichever design they are is not the one preferred for racing situations.
The dampening control unit your're referring to is called an EDFC - Electronic Dampening Force Controller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vLude99
If you actually want something you can autoX and daily driven, that is a tough compromise. Do you track also or just autoX. I can tell you first hand that F&F, D2, F2, megan, and Tein is complete crap. F&F, D2, F2 or whatever is all the same garbage. Any real shock will not have more than 5 levels of damping adjustment. I cannot find the dyno charts right now but if you can find it, the dyno charts tell the truth that these "adjustments" do absolutely nothing. Tein is i would say not complete garbage but their shocks are way underdamped. I have the Tein Flex on my lude that gets daily driven, autoX and tracked about 10-15 events per year. I can tell you that that suspension is crap. It's too stiff for street, but way too soft and way too underdamped for track. If you don't mind the wait, you should check out AMR Engineering. They will custom build you a set of suspension with the correct spring rates and valved correctly for what you will use it for.
There is nothing wrong with Tein products - Unless you've tested and proven the facts yourself that the EDFC has no effect on the suspension, your giving us no useful information, just a biased opinion because you're not happy with the Flex setup
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewCjDuong
Friend has Tein SS with EDFC on his IS350 and he DD's it. The EDFC allows full control of the dampening inside your car. The biggest issue is actually the installation for the EDFC as that will cost the most. Definitely a very cool unit and works very well.
I have Tein Super Street's and have an EDFC installed as well - most good coil overs with aftermarket tophats you need to adjust manually, the EDFC just makes it easier to do it from within the car. Installation is rather easy, they come with well over 8' of line per shock. The only thing that's needed besides that is a 12v power supply for memory, a ground, and wired to the ignition so it turns on like everything else in the car.
search ground control/ koni setup.
the coilovers you are looking at are crap, theyre the low end or copies...ones that are worth the money start at 3500.00 and go up.
ground control and koni is the BEST set up out there for the price and performance hands down! and it will only set you back about 1100 give or take
__________________
My Babies:
69 mustang
98 prelude
06 STi
2012 STi
when Height adjustment via bottom mount (to retain full damper travel), is much better way
and if Tein have "Larger piston diameter for strut type front and rear (22mm)"
BC Racing BR have 53mm chassis/shell with 46mm piston (diameters)
Quote:
Originally Posted by timoram
I want to go with something that will give me great performance at the auto-x circuit as well as daily driven.
with BC Racing coilovers Duncan Grahams Subaru Impreza won 2009 Time Attack class championship and Norris Designs 900bhp short wheel base Mitsubishi Evo has won 2010 AAA Saloon Cup race series with BC Racing so they kinda work on tracks as well And like I said, I use them daily.
After doing a lot of reading the BC Coilovers look to be the best option. To bad they do not offer any remote damper adjustment option for there coilovers but you cant have everything :P
For the BB6 chassis, is there an optional pillow ball mount for the coilovers or just the stock hard rubber mount? I cant seem to find this information anywhere on there website.
After doing a lot of reading the BC Coilovers look to be the best option. To bad they do not offer any remote damper adjustment option for there coilovers but you cant have everything :P
For the BB6 chassis, is there an optional pillow ball mount for the coilovers or just the stock hard rubber mount? I cant seem to find this information anywhere on there website.
Njah, you dont need to adjust them all the time
Yep, you can choose between rubber or pillow ball... I recommend that rubber if you drive daily. And btw, there is also V1 version which is kinda for street use, but I bought that BR (which is little bit better than that V1 but also little bit more expensive).
Here in Finland they costed 850 euros which is something like 1230 us dollars
AND you can choose spring rates yourself also if you like to... I took their "basic" springs and they work for me (dont really understand anything about those spring rates and I didnt want them to be too hard).
Njah, you dont need to adjust them all the time
Yep, you can choose between rubber or pillow ball... I recommend that rubber if you drive daily. And btw, there is also V1 version which is kinda for street use, but I bought that BR (which is little bit better than that V1 but also little bit more expensive).
Here in Finland they costed 850 euros which is something like 1230 us dollars
AND you can choose spring rates yourself also if you like to... I took their "basic" springs and they work for me (dont really understand anything about those spring rates and I didnt want them to be too hard).
I'm just looking to keep it under $2000 for the coilovers so that is more than reasonable for the kind of performance they seem to offer when compared to other brands.
As for the rubber or pillow mounts. I think I will opt for the pillow mounts. This car works double duty as both a auto-x car as well as a dd. For me the stiff suspension is not a problem.....the ladies.....well its good there is a loud stereo in the car haha
I have also Eibach camber adjustable upper balljoints (like I already said) with those coilovers (those oem ones might wear fast if you lower your car much)
I have also Eibach camber adjustable upper balljoints (like I already said) with those coilovers (those oem ones might wear fast if you lower your car much)
I'm going to go with the BC units when i get the cash in place. I saw a progression thread on another Prelude forum and the guy there choose 8k springs in the front and 6k for the back. I PM'd him and asked if he was happy with his choice since his is a daily driver and he said it was great.
Since I am new to all the suspension mods, could you tell me the difference between the pillowball and just the regular rubber mounts you are talking about? Sounds like I need to stay with the regular rubber since I am looking for a nice ride for my daily driver.
__________________
2001 Pearl White Prelude (base)
SS Auto (rebuilt @ 166k)
Currently 188k+ miles
Since I am new to all the suspension mods, could you tell me the difference between the pillowball and just the regular rubber mounts you are talking about? Sounds like I need to stay with the regular rubber since I am looking for a nice ride for my daily driver.
well pillows are designed for track use, they dont "live" at all so suspension is really hard or little bit harder... when you drive daily you possibly want smoother ride, thats why I took the rubbers. dont get me wrong; intact rubbers are very firm but not that hard as the pillows
bc's "basic" prelude spring rates are (what I have)
front 10 kg/mm
rear 5 kg/mm
@TypeT good info. Guess I need to just email or talk to BC about what I'm looking for and see what they recommend as far as the spring rates. I'm going with the standard rubber mounts since this car will never see a track while I own it. Heck, the 15 miles I drive to and from work each day in Memphis traffic and street conditions, I feel like I'm in a race already!
__________________
2001 Pearl White Prelude (base)
SS Auto (rebuilt @ 166k)
Currently 188k+ miles
@TypeT good info. Guess I need to just email or talk to BC about what I'm looking for and see what they recommend as far as the spring rates.
well, I talked with BC Racing Finland when I bought mine and they recommended those basic springs, its kinda hard to mess with those spring rates because everybody has own taste of things... That I dont remember can you change those springs for free if you dont like them.
There is nothing wrong with Tein products - Unless you've tested and proven the facts yourself that the EDFC has no effect on the suspension, your giving us no useful information, just a biased opinion because you're not happy with the Flex setup
I've actually said nothing about the EDFC. The EDFC is just a simple servo/motor that turns the adjustment knob for you with the control unit. The EDFC itself has nothing to do with the dampers' performance itself. Anyways, I've had already played with two sets of Tein coilovers, the Tein Flex, and the old school Tein HA. These products are good/okay/bad depending on what you use them for. If you look at the dyno charts, the Tein dampers are not bad for racing, but are more designed for street use. Their dyno curves make it more forgiving for the streets and form better for the bumps on the road. This leads to conclude that the Teins although stiff, are meant more for canyon driving and daily use and occasional track or autoX.
Then if you will, look at the spring rates. The Tein Flex comes out of the box with 10kg/mm Front and 6kg/mm Rear, whereas the HA comes with 12kg/mm Front and 8kg/mm Rear. I can see this working very well on the street and canyon driving but these springs rates are complete crap on track and autoX.
The spring rates indicate that they are designed for understeer. All other suspension settings aside, based on these rates alone, the front will start slip first in the corner. For FWD's in general, you do not want to just stiffen up the suspension and keep understeer. For racing you want as close to neutral steer as possible. You know that on the track, turning the car isn't anything like the street. You literally steer the car, not only with the steering wheel, but by controlling the G's via weight shiftng. For FWD racing, you want to enter the corner with oversteer and exit with understeer.
Since FWD's are in general prone to understeer, the corner entry is the only chance you get to oversteer because once you dive in, it is much harder to regain oversteer. You either setup the car for lift-throttle oversteer, or left-foot-brake. All of which can easily throw off balance in corners where you are over 90MPH in a little underpowered Honda where keeping momentum and speed in these corners are very crucial.
For the Prelude, the Tein HA is easier to drive than the Flex on the tracks. Simply because of the higher rear spring rate. To achieve the steering response that I want, I have to trail-brake going into the turn because lifting the throttle isn't enough to get the car in oversteer. Which is okay, but I'm losing time. Then I hit the apex of the corner but I cannot fully depress the throttle because the weight shifts to the back and the front loses traction so I have to feather the throttle to get the car up to speed. If the rear spring rates are stiff enough, I can plant the throttle faster because it will keep the weight to the front and more grip on the drive wheels and have a faster exit speed.
I've actually said nothing about the EDFC. The EDFC is just a simple servo/motor that turns the adjustment knob for you with the control unit. The EDFC itself has nothing to do with the dampers' performance itself. Anyways, I've had already played with two sets of Tein coilovers, the Tein Flex, and the old school Tein HA. These products are good/okay/bad depending on what you use them for. If you look at the dyno charts, the Tein dampers are not bad for racing, but are more designed for street use. Their dyno curves make it more forgiving for the streets and form better for the bumps on the road. This leads to conclude that the Teins although stiff, are meant more for canyon driving and daily use and occasional track or autoX.
So, if the EDFC has nothing to do with the dampers - what is it there to do?
I only replied to your post because your reference to all Tein products being "crap" - would only leave the assumption that the EDFC is "crap" as well in regards to the suspension being "too stiff" for street but "too underdamped" for track...which could be adjusted easily.
So, you say the products are crap, you use Flex, and then you turn around and say they're good? Not good enough for street in one comment - but good enough for daily use in your next?
I don't seem to have any issues changing the dampening on my Tein's - going from smooth as stock one day to stiff as a soapbox car the next.
cheers!
Quote:
Originally Posted by vLude99
If you actually want something you can autoX and daily driven, that is a tough compromise. Do you track also or just autoX. I can tell you first hand that F&F, D2, F2, megan, and Tein is complete crap. F&F, D2, F2 or whatever is all the same garbage. Any real shock will not have more than 5 levels of damping adjustment. I cannot find the dyno charts right now but if you can find it, the dyno charts tell the truth that these "adjustments" do absolutely nothing. Tein is i would say not complete garbage but their shocks are way underdamped. I have the Tein Flex on my lude that gets daily driven, autoX and tracked about 10-15 events per year. I can tell you that that suspension is crap. It's too stiff for street, but way too soft and way too underdamped for track. If you don't mind the wait, you should check out AMR Engineering. They will custom build you a set of suspension with the correct spring rates and valved correctly for what you will use it for.
So, if the EDFC has nothing to do with the dampers - what is it there to do?
I only replied to your post because your reference to all Tein products being "crap" - would only leave the assumption that the EDFC is "crap" as well in regards to the suspension being "too stiff" for street but "too underdamped" for track...which could be adjusted easily.
So, you say the products are crap, you use Flex, and then you turn around and say they're good? Not good enough for street in one comment - but good enough for daily use in your next?
I don't seem to have any issues changing the dampening on my Tein's - going from smooth as stock one day to stiff as a soapbox car the next.
cheers!
Well sir,
Just because I use the Tein Flex, doesn't have to mean that I love them. In my first post, I was saying they are crap for straight on Track performance because the spring rates are all wrong, please read both of my posts to learn the basic dynamics of car handling. In my personal opinion, they are crap for the street too...but that is according to my personal taste. Because a street car to me is supposed to be a nice quiet semi soft ride. Although some of you say that you can handle stiff suspension on the street. That is your own personal choice. So yes, I stick to what I say...In MY opinion, the spring rates are too stiff...as in uncomfortable for the street. If you have enough brains to comprehend that much, then I will tell you that also in my opinion, when the Flex are put on the track...as in real racing(not your little freeway pedal mashing)...they are way too soft and is difficult to control the fore and aft weight/load transfer.
So you seem to base your argument that I am contradicting myself by saying they are "crap" but I however choose to still use it. Well isn't it possible that I do not like some of the stuff I purchase? Isn't it possible that I keep these components on my car simply because I do not have the funds to change to something else? I spend about $1500 per track day to keep the car running. Has it ever crossed your mind that keeping a dd car for track may just in fact cost a lot of money and therefore limits my options in buying all of the go fast goodies that my heart so desires?
Honestly, I am one of the few people here that can give an alternative perspective on these coilovers because I do indeed have used them. Please expand your pea sized brain for a couple of seconds and try to realize that most of the reviews posted are from the one perspective of a street only car or a street and canyon driven car. Don't you think it would be nice to get an opinion from someone that has years of track experience with the prelude? Wouldn't it be nicer to have the thoughts of an engineer that has designed suspension for a Formula SAE race car? Then how about this same person has enough expertise to move on to designing drive train and suspension for Formula Hybrid SAE car also?
So please sir, when I say the EDFC doesn't do anything except turn the knob for you, just trust me on this. If not, please explain to these good people on this forum how the TEIN EDFC unit is not an overpriced electrical/mechanical knob turner?
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And like I said, I use them daily.
could you tell me the difference between the pillowball and just the regular rubber mounts you are talking about? Sounds like I need to stay with the regular rubber since I am looking for a nice ride for my daily driver.
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