Ok here it is, I have a 00 base model Prelude. In three weeks the car will be complete. Here is a complete list of mods that will be done, I am not posting any prices because all the additions cost me a lot less than most.
Fmax kit with polished piping, thermocoated manifold and downpipe
turbonetics T3/T04B ceramic ball bearing turbo
Spearco intercooler
HKS BOV
SpeedPro engine management
720cc injectors (big I know, but I'd rather spend the money now)
STR fuel rail
Aeromotive Fuel Pressure Regulator
Holley 1000hp fuel pump
Nuformz block guard
6 puck clutch (feels close to stock amazingly)
APR head studs
Tial wastegate
Ok that should be all. I will be running open loop on the street and downpipe out. I am going to dyno the car after everything is done. The car will be running 300+ HP (conservative #) at the wheels at 8lbs. The horsepower lies in the tuning of the vehicle.
Now I would like to see a supercharged prelude pull 300+ horses on the dyno with engine management and 8lbs of boost!
I like the supercharger, the powerband is useful for daily driving in traffic, and around town. But I am still against the ultimate "PING" machine that the JRSC represents.
What do you guys think?
You will not get over 300HP from 8 psi. My car, which F-MAX used to make the Turbo kit, made 288HP with 9psi and open loop. (Check the website for dyno) If you want 300+Hp, you will have to run over 10psi.
Obviously some of you people have not seen what engine management can accomplish. Without "band-aids" (MF-2) to mask faults in the tuning of the engine, you can run the vehicle perfectly.
With the proper timing and fuel curves many things can be done.
I am aware of the claims that FMax has, and I am also aware that this may be asking a lot from my car. My car is not a daily driven vehicle, although it can be daily driven the rising gas prices and 720cc injectors do not mix.
I am going to prove the non-believers wrong, you can accomplish 300+ wheel horsepower without having a built bottom end and gobs of boost
Now flame if you will, but if your smart you will study what engine management can do for your vehicle. Learn about it, then utilize your knowledge to gain more power than you thought possible
Last edited by LudeSpeed2000 : 07-08-2001 at 10:34 AM.
Well, good luck to you. Let us know what happend because I would like to know. I am just saying that I never saw anyone make 300Hp to the wheels with just 8psi before. That means you have to make 360HP to the crank.
Oh, just an idea. If you run 8 smaller injectors instead of 4 big ones, you will have less chance of detonation. And for the block guard, AEBS makes the best (Strongest) ones in the market. You might want to check it out.
Originally posted by LudeSpeed2000 Obviously some of you people have not seen what engine management can accomplish. Without "band-aids" (MF-2) to mask faults in the tuning of the engine, you can run the vehicle perfectly.
With the proper timing and fuel curves many things can be done.
I am aware of the claims that FMax has, and I am also aware that this may be asking a lot from my car. My car is not a daily driven vehicle, although it can be daily driven the rising gas prices and 720cc injectors do not mix.
I am going to prove the non-believers wrong, you can accomplish 300+ wheel horsepower without having a built bottom end and gobs of boost
Now flame if you will, but if your smart you will study what engine management can do for your vehicle. Learn about it, then utilize your knowledge to gain more power than you thought possible
engine management doesn't do much better than what a rising rate regulator or mf-2 can do at low boost situations. As long as the a/f ratios are good and the combustion is sweet then what can an engine management do that is not already being done? not much at all. You're stock prelude hits about 165hp, and getting 300hp from 8psi is a 135 hp jump. i don't think it can be done.
I'm not flaming you at all, i'm just telling you that HP is very over rated in terms of "a turbo will give me 1000000000hp."
good luck on your venture though. show us a dyno of what you get.
what are your exact turbo specs btw. It makes a difference. I've seen a turbo that put out great top end (good for saying i got 400hp) but had such crappy low and mid end power.
The dyno plots will be posted in a month and a half. I am interested in knowing if I can hit the 300hp mark also. If 8psi will not make it happen then surely 10psi will do the trick. I am not professing that I know everything about it. I am learning as I go, however after seeing the way you can manipulate the ignition and fuel curves so that you run close to the perfect a/f ration no matter the situation and get tremendous horsepower out of the vehicle, I am ecstatic.
My car is not a daily driven vehicle, it is paid off and will not interfere with any transportation to and from university, college, and work. So if it works great, if it doesn't then it can sit until I am ready to finish it.
I am just amazed of the hype that the JRSC is causing, my personal preference is that the JRSC is crap. I loved killing GSR's when I was completely stock. Seeing what a JRSC'd equipped GSR can do, I would not like to pay 3500 to be able to run with the preludes smaller similarly equipped bretheren. That's just my 0.02
I have a turbo setup, a modified FMAX kit. Actually it's not installed right this second, but will be again in a month and a half running w/hondata. I'm only saying this so you can see my bias would probably be towards a turbo, and in fact it is.
But I think a SC on our car is different then an SC on a Teg. Indeed a turbo will yeild more hp, especially above 4k or so when tuned right. But we have a larger engine and SCs do better with larger engines. The difference in engine size is more noticiable then a turbo would be. Personally I'd rather run a turbo then an SC, but I certainly would not call them crap, for $3,500.00-5k (with electronics/install). I think they are a pretty good deal and if tuned right are probably less worrysome then a turbo maintenance wise *if* your not trying to push them past their "plug and play" specs.
From my research, not real world experience, I agree that the engine management probably isn't a huge difference @8lbs. I'm not saying there is no benifit, running 4 larger primaries instead of 2 secondaries is more efficient and more reliable, but I think an boost dependent FPR would probably yeild about the same as engine management at 8lbs.
Personally I wouldn't spend money on the block guard. It would cost more, but I think resleaving the block with coated lower compression pistons would be a better way to go even if you don't want to totally build the bottem end of do head work. You should be able to run 10lbs safely long term. I would probably do that with a cartech FMU instead of the engine management @10lbs or less and only buy the engine management if I build the bottem and go above that.
What cat back / exhaust are you getting? Are you keeping your CAT?
Definately keep us posted with dyno plots :-)
-Smilez
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
Well, with a perfectly tuned fuel/timing engine management system, running 8 psi, an open cat, open dump, and large injectors, I can see it making a bit over 300 HP, and the heat coating helps too. I am expecting to get 300 hp to the wheels myself after the Hondata and 3" cat back(and 3" cat) after some dyno tuning at 8 psi. I may only have 440 cc injectors, but if a Fmax kit running 9 psi with open loop and stock exhaust(and 104 octane booster) can get 288.4 hp to the wheels, then getting 300 hp with my set-up should be a cake-walk after tuning.
Of course, I am not stopping there....eventually I'll lose all my self control and build up the bottom and then turn the psi up to about 15 and hope to be in the 400 range- but I guess I will have to "settle" for 300 whp for now
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300 hp @ 8 lbs. is a high mark to aim for. The standalone you are using will make a huge difference over an FMU, but not an MF2. FMUs and preludes don't seem to mix too well. Ignition timing control of the standalone will make quite a difference as well I would imagine.
Turbo trim will have a big effect on peak power #'s.
I am glad too see that some others think that it is possible to gain that much horsepower out of 8lbs.
I don't think that the JRSC is crap. it has it's advantages among the cones at the local SCCA type events. However holding it's own on the street is where I am concerned.
If anyone who has a JRSC will share their race experiences with it, then we can see what it is capable of. Anyone here with a JRSC'd Prelude ever race a JRSC'd GSR?
Originally posted by Spocko Well, with a perfectly tuned fuel/timing engine management system, running 8 psi, an open cat, open dump, and large injectors, I can see it making a bit over 300 HP, and the heat coating helps too. I am expecting to get 300 hp to the wheels myself after the Hondata and 3" cat back(and 3" cat) after some dyno tuning at 8 psi. I may only have 440 cc injectors, but if a Fmax kit running 9 psi with open loop and stock exhaust(and 104 octane booster) can get 288.4 hp to the wheels, then getting 300 hp with my set-up should be a cake-walk after tuning.
Of course, I am not stopping there....eventually I'll lose all my self control and build up the bottom and then turn the psi up to about 15 and hope to be in the 400 range- but I guess I will have to "settle" for 300 whp for now
Just for the record, their quoted 288 is running @ 9psi.
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
Originally posted by Spocko ..., but if a Fmax kit running 9 psi with open loop and stock exhaust(and 104 octane booster) can get 288.4 hp to the wheels,...
Isn't that what he said? He wants to make more power at 8psi than F-Max did at 9psi is the jist of it.
__________________ DirtyLude
Mark Higgins
Toronto Prelude Club www.hondaprelude.to
288HP to the wheels were made by 9psi (But more like 10psi since we used the open loop), No exhaust, and 104 octane booster. When we put back the exhuast, the HP droped to 244HP to the wheels.
Isn't that what he said? He wants to make more power at 8psi than F-Max did at 9psi is the jist of it.
I'm still curious what exhaust he plans to run, that will make a big difference.
In the end, I guess the question is how much a coated dp and manifold, precise fuel/ignition management using sufficient fuel with a ball bearning turbo will make.
I'd also like to see what kind of difference the ball bearing turbo alone would make by itself.
-Jeff
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
Originally posted by Akira 288HP to the wheels were made by 9psi (But more like 10psi since we used the open loop), No exhaust, and 104 octane booster. When we put back the exhuast, the HP droped to 244HP to the wheels.
um, I don't really belong to either camp. I still haven't decided whether to go turbo or sc, but isn't it safe to say that the JRSC properly tuned will put around 230hp to the wheels (with the exhaust on)? Throw in a good header, high-flow cat, and exhaust maybe? I mean, what good is a whp rating without an exhaust on... especially if you're more concerned about how the car will perform on the street?
We need some jrsc dyno slips.
Plus, not only is max hp important, but the powerband (curve) may make a lower whp Lude actually faster on the street. I don't know... seems logical. At 300(+) whp, traction would be on my list of concerns in street trim.
Actually, for the Fmax 288 run,. they did have an exhaust- it was a Tanabe, but it was not 3". Yeah it was open and 9 psi, but we all know that Fmax leaves something to be desired when it comes to putting together a great turbo kit, and that something is "more HP". My kit should deliver that, especially with my HPC extreme coating on my T housing, manifold(a Kiwi at that), and DP- and then a 3" cat conv. and 3" custom exhaust.
Believe me if they got 288 with that set-up, it will be a crime if I don't see 300. PSI is not the end all in power, there are other important factors in the HP quest when it comes to turbo, and cooling and proper fuel delivery are 2 big ones. Cooling I got down to a science, and after I get my Hondata all hooked up, I'll be looking ahead to bigger and better things in the 400 range(after a bottom end re-working).
Originally posted by LudeSpeed2000 Anyone here with a JRSC'd Prelude ever race a JRSC'd GSR?
I ran one on the street....from one light about 1/8 mile to another light. I had him buy 1 car. We pulled over and chatted for a while. He told me his best time w/slicks was a 13.5....I ran a 13.6 on CRAPPY stock potenzas!!!!!!:finger: :finger:
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99 Crystal-Blue Base
JRSC
ACT clutch
Fidanza lighted flywheel
DC Ceramic Header
KONI/Ground Control
WW Aggressor II kit
Mugen wing
Jacobs Ignition
Vitek wires
AEM underdrive pulleys
RS Akimoto intake
+ other GOODIES
Originally posted by Spocko Actually, for the Fmax 288 run,. they did have an exhaust- it was a Tanabe, but it was not 3". Yeah it was open and 9 psi, but we all know that Fmax leaves something to be desired when it comes to putting together a great turbo kit, and that something is "more HP". My kit should deliver that, especially with my HPC extreme coating on my T housing, manifold(a Kiwi at that), and DP- and then a 3" cat conv. and 3" custom exhaust.
Believe me if they got 288 with that set-up, it will be a crime if I don't see 300. PSI is not the end all in power, there are other important factors in the HP quest when it comes to turbo, and cooling and proper fuel delivery are 2 big ones. Cooling I got down to a science, and after I get my Hondata all hooked up, I'll be looking ahead to bigger and better things in the 400 range(after a bottom end re-working).
I don't think the FMAX kit is that bad. To me it only has 2 glaring issues, the MAP check valve should be something like a missing link, not the cheapo system they have. And the wastegate gasses should merge with the turbo exhaust gasses farther apart, that would help when running closed loop. The latter is currently speculative on my part, I'll be re-running the wastegate exhaust to merge right before the cat, then I will know for sure, but all my research says this is the reason the fmax kit gets +44whp when running open loop.
You can get the housing, downpipe and manifold all HPC'd if you want to spend the money. You can get a ball bearing turbo if you want to spend the money.
The other issues aren't really to blame on FMAX. Yeah, stand alone engine management would be nice, but now your talking about an additional 1-2k. A equal length runner manifold would be nice, but that would cost additional as well, and the kit is already a PITA to install, that would just make it harder. I don't think for the 5-10% gain (speculative of course) when only running 7-9lbs it would make sense for FMAX to do either of these things and charge 5k+ for the kit.
I think if you want a quick 90-100whp, the fmax kit is a pretty good deal, tie that with a J&S Safeguard and a few guages, and you could be out the door for ~5k and have pretty good reliability/performance, spend another ~$300, get the coating, and a missing link and that would be a pretty solid performer.
Also, I would think you should easily see 300whp with your setup. I would think the same for LudeSpeed2000 but he still hasn't said what exhaust he's using, and I think that will make a huge difference in getting above 300 vs right around 300.
-Jeff
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
Ok....sorry I was on vacation. I plan to use no cat and no exhaust on the street. As it is just a weekend play-toy I see no need for it.
I have an Apexi N1 right now, but I will be selling it soon.
Wow a 13.6 on crappy street tires for a JRSC prelude, that sounds great!:finger:
Originally posted by LudeSpeed2000 Ok....sorry I was on vacation. I plan to use no cat and no exhaust on the street. As it is just a weekend play-toy I see no need for it.
I have an Apexi N1 right now, but I will be selling it soon.
Wow a 13.6 on crappy street tires for a JRSC prelude, that sounds great!:finger:
No exhaust huh? Well whatever floats your boat I guess
__________________
-Smilez
'02 MP5
'97 Base Prelude
'93 Touring RX-7
Originally posted by LudeSpeed2000 Ok....sorry I was on vacation. I plan to use no cat and no exhaust on the street. As it is just a weekend play-toy I see no need for it.
I have an Apexi N1 right now, but I will be selling it soon.
Wow a 13.6 on crappy street tires for a JRSC prelude, that sounds great!:finger:
Uh, really? The law has no problem with you running open exhaust on the street? Interesting...
All I know is that all the turbo ludes running at around 7-8 psi have been running mid 14's at the track. All the SC ludes have been running mid-high 13's. Just face it, Turbos and our cars do not mix. At least that's what I've seen so far. I've also heard that the dynamics of our engine are not well suited for high boost (long stroke). I've actually thought of getting a B18C motor, building it, then running about 15 lbs of boost to get over 300 HP reliably. Most of the people I know that ran Nitrous or Turboed their Preludes blew something up (bent valves mostly). A Turbo would be expensive for our cars done right. Done like the kit says (FMAX or Drag), its gonna be disapointing.
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2003 S2000 - Back in Black!
2002 WRX - Totalled
13.7@97
