blackomega

How hard is it to turbocharge a manual base 5th gen? I've heard varying accounts....I need the truth.

My car is bone stock, and Im not spending money on any cosmetics until the engine is maxed out... So, what all do I need to do to make my car run, say... 13's? Which turbo kit is the best? What all do I need to do to the engine to acheive this? New pistons maybe? Bigger cam? Do I need to build anything up? Please tell me anything, or everything you did. I want this car to be really fast. What do any of you know about the new GReddy kit coming out? Any help is appreciated, but please dont tell me something if you dont know, especially if you dont have a turbo.

Perhaps a cost too?

PS- No nitrous.

PLEASE HELP

 

BlueShadow

how many forums you gonna post this in?!?

I don't have a turbo yet, but I'm gonna answer anyway. I've only been researching and reading on Turbos for ohhh I dont know a year to 6 months.

If you wan't to run just "13's" then you really don't need a serious turbo setup. The Greddy will probably be good enough for you. just get yourself a 3" exhaust, Greddy Intercooler kit, Profec A or B boost controller and maybe the Greddy E-manage. Greddy is also good if your worried about Smog-Check and you live in CA. Of course no one can say how the Greddy will perform cause its not out yet, you might have to wait and see how well the Greddy kit is.

You can achieve 13's no problem but you should boost no more than 7-8 PSI on stock internals. If you want to be able to handle more boost pressure you should build up your block. some of the things you'll need:

--Iron Ductile Sleeves (to handle more cylinder pressure)
--Forged Pistons and rings (JE, Arias) ask around see which one is better
--Con-Rods (Crower)

with all those you'll be able to handle 9+ PSI If your fuel management is tip-top. Some people say that you dont need to do all that stuff if your only boosting 7-8 PSI, but I don't think anyone knows for sure exactly how long your engine would last without the buildup.

You really dont need Turbo Cams until your boosting 15+ PSI IMO. If you want to go faster than 13.5x you'll probably have to get either a custom kit or a FMAX with a standalone or Hondata system for fuel mgmt. BTW do you drive an SH or a Base VTEC? and what's your budget? and where do you live? CA?

There is also a Forced Induction forum here too. I would advise you to visit that and read the threads on there to get a better understanding on Turbo's.

blackomega

i had to make sure i got a response... on hondaprelude.com, hardly anyone responds to **** like that

BlueShadow

Dont worry even though you wont get an answer right away you will get an answer here on the FI forum.

I was about to ask how many forums you were gonna answer on too I'm just gonna move all my replies from the 5G forum thread to this one and delete all my posts over on the 5G thread.

I'm not exactly sure about TX smog laws, but you might be able to get a cheaper turbo setup If you go custom. hand pick what parts you want and get them for real cheap. Of course you'll want the best parts and for a low cost. Thats something you'll have to research on your own, I haven't actually had to shop around. You might be able to get a custom kit for $1500-$2500 and get a standalone like Haltech ($1200ish) or Hondata ($1500-$2300 depending on what stage) but some might say that both of those are overkill for just 7-8 PSI.

are you saying how harder would it be to run lower than 13 seconds?

FMAX comes with an 2 additional injectors and an Additional Injector Controller (AIC for short or MF2). this is only good for about 7-8 PSI of "safe" boost.

same thing for the DRAG kits. they use a Rising Rate Boost dependant Fuel pressure regulator. It is also good for about 7-8 PSI of "safe" boost.

Each systems has it's pros and cons I like the FMAX because the Manifold is built better (I've Heard) and the fuel mgmt is a little better. The FMAX adjusts fuel based on RPM and BOOST PRESSURE. The Drag only adjusts the fuel based on the amount of BOOST you're running. One of the FMAX's cons is that the additional injectors are in the Intake tube before the TB. In some cases the farthest cylinder from the injectors will lean out because the fuel is not venly distributed between cylinders. altough thats a Con I think its pro is the ability to adjust the fuel on different RPM points. The MF2 allows you lean out/richen the fuel at 1000 RPM increments by turning a "screw".

The Drag increases fuel pressure to flow more fuel but it increases fuel throughout the RPM range. So if you're running a perfect Air/Fuel ratio at 7400 RPM you'll be running rich at 4000 because you have the same amount of fuel being delivered at 7400 and 4000 RPM. Some people use a VAFC to lean out the fuel but this is not a good idea especially for 10+ PSI. Also If you reverse the DRAG concept ie. you are getting a perfect A/F ratio at 4000 but at 7400 you will lean out. Like I said before the amount of fuel being delivered is determined by BOOST not RPM. Unless you richen the fuel at 7400 you're gonna detonate you can make both systems work for greater than 8 PSI but its risky.


I cant really give you an exact numbers on the parts plus install of internals but if you do a search in the Forced induction forum you'll find your answer.

for prices on the Greddy plus the stuff click this link and post your question How many people interested in Greddy Turbo Kit?

blackomega

Thanks... I dont think Im smart enough to do the custom turbo, I'll probably get a kit, and probably the GReddy, unless you think i should just do f-max from the beginning.

I could always sell the Greddy and get an f-max later if i wanted a higher boost of course...

since you dont have one yet, if you dont mind me asking, which one are you thinking about getting, and why?

Thanks for your help

schwett

i'm not sure this explanation holds water... the stock ECU delivers more fuel at 7400 than 4000 by altering the injector pulse width. at full throttle, the fuel pressure will not change between 4000 and 7400rpm. timing and injector pulse will change. since the drag kit does not modify the ECU, all it's doing is proportionally increasing the amount of fuel delivered at both 4000 and 7400.

while i'm not saying this is the perfect fuel management solution (it's not), i don't think the problem you are describing is necessarily an inevitable result of a rising rate FMU. it seems much more common for H22A motors to run RICH up high (the ECU seems to like to dump fuel above 6000) than lean.

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BlueShadow

blackomega,

I might end up getting the Greddy turbo. My main reason is I want a CARB legal kit when I move back to Cali. I'm doin my own research to figure out how much boost an Internal wastgate can safely go up to, But I'm thinking I might be able to boost 8-10 PSI.

You can sell the Greddy but you'll be loosing money. Why not just get the FMAX to begin with. When you want to boost higher sell the MF2 and 2 additional injectors and buy a standalone and bigger injectors, and bigger fuel pump.

schwett,

All I need to know is I dont like it. I was just going from my memory, that and I dont care to research exactly how DRAG's fuel mgmt works. I probably should though if I'm gonna make an explanation of how it works.

__________________
Blue
-1989 Ford Probe GT (stock, POS) **SOLD**
-1999 EBP Civic SI (modded) **SOLD**
-2001 EBP Prelude Base (almost stock) **SOLD**
-1993 VR RX-7 R1 (modded, 280 RWHP) **RIP**
-1991 Red CRX DX (built 1.9L B18C, SC61 turbo- in the works)
-1990 White CRX DX (stock, Bronze VX rims)

Every man has his own destiny: the only imperative is to follow it, to accept it, no matter where it leads him. -- Henry Miller

blackomega

could i just buy bigger injectors/fuel pump for the greddy? And, if you were going to get the greddy, couldnt you get a different wastegate? or are those too expensive....

From what youre telling me, I may just get an f-max... I hear they are the best out RIGHT NOW... greddy may be better when it comes out, but i know that its going to cost a lot more than what i see for the f-max price... Im sure i'll just wait to see how everyone rates the greddy, and if its just phenomenal, then i'll get it, but if its a little more performance than the f-max, ill be glad to know that i can easily increase the performance of my f-max... right? and I can be happy knowing that i saved at least a grand, right? since the greddy kit w/out an intercooler is as much as the total f-max....

BlueShadow

I believe that the Greddy kits for the Teg and Civic SI did come with bigger injectors and a blue or black "box". I don't exactly know how he Greddy controls fuel, maybe the people over at the FI forum on www.honda-tech.com can help.

with the wastegate, You can use an Electronic Boost Controller (EBC) to raise the boost past what the WG spring is set for. ie. the WG is set for 5 PSI, you use the EBC to raise it up to 8 PSI. I've read that internal WG's aren't very good for high boost 10-15+ PSI. I believe Dr James posted in a thread a while ago about how to change the internal WG to an external WG.

You are right when you say that you will save money with the FMAX. You can take the extra money you saved with the FMAX and put it towards a better fuel management system. BTW I think you can ask FMAX to leave out the MF2 (AIC) and save yourself some money, I know a few members ave done it. You can also ask for specific turbo specs with FMAX instead of just getting the same one everyone else will get (Greddy). since you're in TX it might be a good idea to go to www.NTPOG.com and ask around to see if there are any helpful shops near your area than can help you with a custom turbo and even do an install for you. NTPOG (North Texas Prelude Owners Group has a forum in this site too so you can ask them some questions.

blackomega

thanks, youre really helpful....
the sad thing is, you probably know more about turbos than most of the rich idiots that get them... keep it up.

and keep me posted if you get the greddy kit on how it performs

BlueShadow

stop it! you're making me blush. Actually I think I've just given you a general idea of what to look out for. The other members will be able to help you better if you decide to actually peice together or install your own kit. If you eventually run out of questions to ask you should browse aroung on all the FI thread, and read up on stuff you dont understand.

Happy Luding,

pmprelude

Blueshadow:

Hey you seem to know your stuff on this topic. I have a few questions for you.

I was thinking of turboing my base 5spd lude.
I went to a turbo shop and they will sell me a T3 turbo for 800
(Canadian)brand new, but i'm wondering what else i would need to do. Basically i need to acquire all the parts and get some friends to install it for me.

The purpose of this set up is to have a turbo lude. I don't plan on dragging it or having large amounts of boost, but hope to run like 6-8psi cuz i dont plan on building up my engine. I want to be able to burn some s2K's and some type R's..etc.

Do i need to increase my exhaust piping to 3"( you mentioned this in a previous post)???

Do i need an LSD??

Do i need to upgrade my fuel system??

Do i need to upgrade my ECU??

Should i upgrade my clutch??

Do i need an intercooler??

thanks in advance for any help you can give me. If some of my questions are dumb it's because i dont' know the answer want to get an answer.