ok, one step closer to my goal. i have everything planned out but have run into some problems. heres my list of ish
rebuild bottom end - scheduled, bergenholtz racing / golden eagle
ignition timing - done, j&s safeguard
fuel curve - done, v-afc
injectors - upgraded but will be swapped out later
fuel delivery - upgraded but will be swapped out later
speed govenor (did we even have one??) - removed, mugen ecu
rev limit - adjustable, mugen ecu and accel ignition
launch rev control - ?????
WOT shift rev control - ?????
air/fuel meter - done, j&s safeguard
egt - coming, autometer
vtec engagment point - done, v-afc
ignition system - done, accel 300+
cam timing - done, aem adjustable gears
head - leaving stock for now
valvetrain - leaving stock for now
safty factor - done, J&S safeguard
now as u can see my problem arises in trying to find something that can control those rev points. if ur unclear what i meant those two points are a rev limit that works when ur not moving and the clutch is in and a rev limit that works when u speed shift (shift staying at WOT). i was originally going to get a hondata engine management system but my plans fell through so i work with what ive got now. i bought the J&S and decided i dont need a standalone or piggyback ecu. so i guess my question is do u guys know of anything i can use to control those two rev points short of a new management system?? (the msd module doesnt plug into my igniion)
also if i overlooked anything engine related that i need to upgrade please let me know. i think this is all i will need to tune and run the car at 20+ lbs of boost
TIA
[This message has been edited by recall (edited April 12, 2001).]
Check out Hondata and Zdyne. Both of em are programmable ECU's based on the stock one and they plug into your stock wiring. They both have the rev limits you're looking for, and they'll also replace the V-AFC, Mugen ECU, and J&S Safeguard. They have fully programmable fuel curves (much more precise than the V-AFC), adjustable spark timing, rev limits, A/C compressor control, and a buncha other stuff.
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Mike Atlas
AIM: PuffMatic
Much respect to the original.
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1998 SilverCiv Hatch
www.rippmods.com/silverciv.htm
Fullbuild D16y7 (bleveit) 1.6sohcnonvtec
small shot NOS
13.50@102 on streettyres
12.93@110 on slicks (yes, bigger shot that time OK yeah yeah)
hmmm..im getting a PR8 ecu with the mugen program on it. would getting a V-AFC be pointless? i still want to change the vtec engagement. does the fields controller just do that?
In order to run 20+ psi of boost, you will need a piggyback or standlone system. The J&S Safeguard works based on how much your motor knocks. Also you will need an aftermarket MAP sensor to handle the high amount of psi. The OEM MAP's diaphram can only tolerate up to 12 psi before it breaks. Thus many standalones utilize a GM 2 bar (can handle up to 14 psi.....reason it's 2 bar is because it includes our atmosphere) and 3 bar (28 psi). Also, you will need at least 720cc injectors in which the Honda ecu will not be able to handle. Alot of sources say 310cc is the upper limit for the stock ecu. As for a 2-stage rev limiter, check out MSD's 2-step control. I know you already have a thundersport so I won't recommend the Digital-6 which includes the 2-step limiter unless you want to replace your ignition amp altogether. Also, don't forget you're going to need a pretty strong clutch. At least a 6-puck or maybe a 4-puck if you're planning on making that much power.
Malice, it wouldn't be pointless. Although you still won't be able to fine-tune the ignition.
In order to run 20+ psi of boost, you will need a piggyback or standlone system. The J&S Safeguard works based on how much your motor knocks. Also you will need an aftermarket MAP sensor to handle the high amount of psi. The OEM MAP's diaphram can only tolerate up to 12 psi before it breaks. Thus many standalones utilize a GM 2 bar (can handle up to 14 psi.....reason it's 2 bar is because it includes our atmosphere) and 3 bar (28 psi). Also, you will need at least 720cc injectors in which the Honda ecu will not be able to handle. Alot of sources say 310cc is the upper limit for the stock ecu. As for a 2-stage rev limiter, check out MSD's 2-step control. I know you already have a thundersport so I won't recommend the Digital-6 which includes the 2-step limiter unless you want to replace your ignition amp altogether. Also, don't forget you're going to need a pretty strong clutch. At least a 6-puck or maybe a 4-puck if you're planning on making that much power.
Malice, it wouldn't be pointless. Although you still won't be able to fine-tune the ignition.
I forogt to mention you will need a very strong fuel pump. The fuel pump I saw you had would not probably handle this much power. Alot of guys like to use the Paxton in-line blue pump which supports in excess of 750+ hp. It's also a good idea to upgrade your fuel lines to 3/8" or maybe even 1/2". 3/8" is similar to a -6 AN fitting and -8 for the 1/2". -6 is the size often used by V8 guys for their lines. Along with this you will need high flow fuel filter. Again, people like to use Paxton or the like. Whatever accepts -6 or anything bigger. Honda fuel filters have been known to handle up to 400+hp but after that I would ditch it for a bigger one. Then, Paxton makes a regulator that accepts -10 lines. Personally I am going to run a -10 S/X regulator that features a -6 return line. Either you can modify the stock fuel rail to accept these fittings, or buy an aftermarket one like a vortech or str that has 1/2" openings on each end.
If you arent going to go with the hondata, accel has a new add on ignition controller/sequential limiter that also does some other stuff, like maybe timing retard? I forget the specifics, but I saw it in a black and white ad in the back of the most recent super street. I went to their website, but I couldnt find it. The kit is a separate controller that plugs right into the existing 300+ harness and has a remote control (wired) for the adjustments. I think itr runs about 200 or so. Check super street for the link, its in the ad
damit, u know how hard it is trying to find accurate info on the fuel delivery system
ok so the ecu will not be able to handle the larger injectors, i could add extra injectors and a rebic but that will cost more than a standalone unit. so my only option is to get a new management unit??
hmmm, ok i have read about ever article ever written about injectors and fuel pressure and fuel flow etc... but stiil dont understand "exactly" how a rising rate regulator plays into. i know how the regulator works and what it does etc. this will raise the fuel prssure level which allows the injectors to flow more fuel blahblahblah. can someone explain this in detail??
grrrrrrr, ok i give up
nobody knows anything about this high end performance crap
not talking about the board, im talking most shops and any internet site i have looked at
i cant talk to haltech directly (thats the system im looking at now)
oh well, rebuild isnt coming up immediatly so i have time to fix it
First a 450 Hp front wheel drive cannot be driven on the street. Second, you'll defiately need some type of engine MGMT, definately not a VAFC, try speedpro
Your inquiry regarding extra injectors brings me up to this, I try to stay away from it. It is not going to be cost effective, and you're better off with a standalone unit that can handle the bigger injectors and also you do have an option to use extra injectors if you please. I do not like the placement of an extra injector in the intake tract, the delivery is poor and often you can have a dangerous situation where the fuel puddles (especially due to the placement and angle of the throttle body, since most "5th injectors" are placed before it). One example I can think of is the FMAX system. There have been reports of poor fuel delivery and rich conditions. One customer even had fuel blowing out of the BOV (blow-off valve) whenever it would open up! The only type of additional injectors I would not mind would be an extra rail with four extra injectors placed a few inches behind the stock injectors, on each intake runners. However I think this is too much overkill (especially on a street car) and still alot of top flight racers get away with using very, very big injectors (in the neighborhood of 1000cc's each) and a nice fat rail (preferrably 1/2" bore).
The way how a rising rate regulator works is like this.... Say it's specified as 8:1, right? This means, for every one pound of boost , the regulator stays closed and adds 12 psi more fuel pressure. For example, if you have your typical DRAG GS-R boosting seven psi, you multiply 7 psi x 8. = 56 psi. Then you add this on top of the stock fuel pressure of say......55 psi under WOT (please don't flame me if this part is accurate, i'm just throwing out a number to help understand), so 55 psi of stock fuel pressure + 56 psi of added pressure made by the rising rate regulator = 101 psi. Yes I know these are high pressures and this type of fuel enrichment is old school compared to standalone systems, but it works in providing the fuel. This is one of the reasons why turbo kits have so much untapped potential by using a standalone system. You can run safer pressures (near to stock) and big injectors by fine tuning the fuel curve instead of raising the fuel-line pressure on those stock 240cc injectors like the GS-Rs has stock.
If I were you, I would check out the new DFI system that is coming out. I have been 'patiently' waiting for this piece to come out but for some reason it keeps on getting backed up. One of the cool things is it will come with a Honda harness and the Calmap software is awesome! No guesswork into creating a base program for the car to run for the first time. The Calmap software asks you several questions about your car and thus determines a nice fuel/ignition curve map for you that you can obviously fine-tune later on.
I orignially had the Haltech laying in my room for several months, waiting for the shop to help wire it in, in-line with the stock ecu so I could retain my creature comforts. They were too busy so unfortunately it never happened. Thus I got a call from them saying they'll give me a good deal if i were to bring back the Haltech and be first on the list for DFI 7.0. But hey, before I turned it in I managed to copy the Haltech program , so if you want to take a look let me know.
I still say Hondata or Zdyne. You got all the programmability you need, and they'll setup a baseline program for you depending on yer order. They also sell RC 450cc injectors.
With that much boost yer definately gonna need the bigger injectors and fuel rail, but I dunno if the pump needs to be upgraded. I would be concerned more with how much fuel it can actually flow rather than the psi it can produce. With bigger injectors and the stock pump with proper management, you should be able to get pretty far. Of course, I dunno if you'll be able to get 450 whp on pump gas no matter what. Check out this dyno:
That's a JG Pro Series B18C w/ Arias pistons, Saenz rods, Pro Series GSR head, JG 296/300 cams, XS turbo charger, DFI fuel management with 750cc injectors. Oh, and it's running 24 psi on 118 octane race gas. Tuned for 92 octane and running 15 psi it makes 332 hp and 330 lb/ft at the wheels.
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Mike Atlas
AIM: PuffMatic
Much respect to the original.
DAYUM!!!
