Upgrading fronts and subs, opinions please - Honda Prelude Forum

ryuryu · 02-06-2005, 12:07 PM

Hey,

so i talked about this before but now that the sun is starting to come out and the weather is improving, I think I'm going to move ahead and upgrade my system.

So currently:
HU: Alpine 9815 - awesome (6months)
High-Mid Amp: Precision Power 440 (4x40) - (6months)
Front's: Broken Kenwood Excelon's XR60 (3yrs old)
Rear: Kenwood Excelon's (3ys old) ... works great
Sub + Amp: Dead and gone.... no bass for 2 yrs :-( ... seriously sucks.

Considering:

Front Comps: MB PCE 216 (2.5" Depth) ~235 @ Ikesound.com
Focal Polyglass 165V2 Slim (2.4" Depth) ~325 @ woofersetc.com

Subs: Single 10w6v2 ~ 280 @ tms-electronics.com
Single 10w6 ~ 180 @ tms-electronics.com
Single Kicker S10L7 ~ 180 @ woofersetc.com

Sub Amp: JL 250/1 ~ 300 @ woofersetc.com
RF160a2 (my old one)

I don't plan on buying anything from ebay, as shipping and handling costs for each device will be substantial. Right now I am leaing towards the MB + 10W6 + 250/1. I'm not too sure if I really need a JL to push the the 10w6, but if i were to get the 10w6V2, then yeah I need it.

I need opinions on selection and price. Thanks

mciampag · 02-07-2005, 08:06 AM

Selection and price all looks nice. Now go to a store and listen to each of the items you're considering. You've gotten the field narrowed down, now you need to listen to them all for yourself, don't trust us - we don't have your ears. You may or may not have trouble finding the Focals, but the rest are pretty common, ought to be in most decent audio stores. When you go to audition stuff, bring your favorite music with you, something you're very familiar with, and use that CD to demo the speakers. If you're lucky and everything is in one place, try different combinations - MB speakers + Kicker sub, then MB speakers + JL sub, then Focals + Kicker, and Focals + JL. You may notice the JL sounds better with the Focals and the Kicker matches better to the MBs, or vice versa.

ryuryu · 02-07-2005, 07:40 PM

sounds like a plan, now what do you guys think about the prices I listed above?

I don't want to buy from ebay because there is no warranty, while the internet retailers do... but perhaps a sub could be bought off of ebay.

hmm?

TimeRacer · 02-08-2005, 12:41 AM

Personally I don't like JL just because of the fact that everyone and their mother has one. Kicker subs sound like ass, but can get extremely loud. If you're looking for a budget sub go with the Image Dynamics ID or IDQ. It sounds much better than the JL and can be powered with much less power. You can find them on sounddomain.com But if you're an SPL guy, go with MTX or Kicker as I believe those are the highest SPL subs in that price range.

The fronts that you have listed require quite a bit more power than you have on tap with your PPI amp. So you won't be driving them anywhere near their potential. I'd actually consider something more like the Kenwood KFC-XR61p, which have an RMS rating of 45 watts. They'll sound much louder and probably sound better with your system. They have a 2" mounting depth so it becomes MUCH easier to install into the doors.

http://www.kenwoodusa.com/product/pr...productId=2428

As for the sub amp, just look for any decent D series amp that will get you the power that you need for which ever sub that you choose. JL now makes some good amps, but there's a million amps that you can choose from to will fit the bill of powering a sub.

blklude98 · 02-08-2005, 02:10 PM

How about the Infinity kappa perfect 10.1d's ? Those are sweet subwoofers and are very very very clean sounding.

mciampag · 02-09-2005, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryuryu

sounds like a plan, now what do you guys think about the prices I listed above?

I don't want to buy from ebay because there is no warranty, while the internet retailers do... but perhaps a sub could be bought off of ebay.

hmm?

I looked at eBay and didn't see any prices that were much better than what you listed. May as well go with those stores.

ryuryu · 02-09-2005, 10:28 AM

thanks,

now i'm considering going for a Hifonics + IDQ10's set up. The only thing is I don't want to over power the subs, and the only D-rated amps from Hifonics are >~300 per channel. anyway i need to filter out potentials and organize a new set up. still leaning towards the MB's because I can't find the XR61P's... which i have had for the past 3~4 years. time for a change.

TimeRacer · 02-09-2005, 12:47 PM

You can't find them? They're listed on a bunch of sites though the best price that my friend was able to find was from etronics.com but right now they seem to be out of stock but will be getting in a new stock soon. I just think that you're going to be underpowering those speakers and you won't get the full potential out of them.

ryuryu · 02-09-2005, 09:41 PM

thanks for the response

Do you guys know Ikesound.com? It's awfully cheap like a Hifonics BX1000D ~185! But i rather pay additional and buy from a reknown place like sounddomain.

Anyway i've been trying to figure out the best set up where the subs handling power matches the amp's output. Now i plan on buying 2 10"-'s instead of just 1... because IDQ's are really cheap on sounddomain. I would like to get a D-class amp and leaning towards Hifonics Brutus class. BUT if I were to set up a brutus amp 1000D (350W@4ohms) and hook up the subs (4ohms) in parallel, then the load would become 1ohm right? then power going into each sub would be 1000W which would blow them most likely. So can I hook up the 2 as series/series? hence 4ohms and 350 each?

anyway if it's 350 to each sub rated at 250continuous, would that still be okay? if not should i step down to 2 channel amp not rated as D-class?

I reveiwed the FAQ section / JL's tutorial guide.... but man I'm a good mech engineer but a terrible electrical engineer.

thanks

mciampag · 02-10-2005, 10:10 AM

ikesound.com has gotten a very good reputation around here. I've never used them, but I haven't heard of many problems either. I think some people have had trouble with returns and warranty work, but don't take my word for it. Search the forums, you'll get plenty to read.

Assuming your subs are 4 ohm single voice coil subs, you can wire them in parallel to produce a 2 ohm load. If they're dual 4 ohm voice coils, you can get a 4 ohm load, or a 1 ohm load, and either overpower or underpower your subs. The BX1000D will give you 500Wx1 @ 2ohms. That would mean 250W to each of your subs. If you have single 4 ohm voice coils, it looks like this is exactly what you want. (dual 2 ohm voice coils could also be wired to a 2 ohm load)

For what it's worth, there's absolutely no reason you can't use a Class A/B amp for your subs. The difference is signal quality, and price. Class D amps usually distort upper frequencies, so you'll never want to use one of them for your main speakers - but they're cheap power, and the distortion is outside the subwoofer's range, so they make good sub amps. If you find a Class A/B amp that meets your power/price criteria, there's no reason not to buy it... but typically they're more expensive for high power applications.

TimeRacer · 02-10-2005, 04:14 PM

Another issue with Class D vs Class A/B is size and power requirements. Class D's require around 50%-60% (guess, there isn't too many direct matches) of their class A/B counterparts in terms of amperage needed to power them. Along with the fact that Class D amps are around 1/3 the size of the class A/B amps. But they are cheap power, though I don't think you'll be running your subs above 80 hz so sound quality shouldn't be an issue.

Is there a reason why you want 1000w? That amount of power will VASTLY out power your internal speakers by a mile and a half. Personally if you feel that you need that kind of power don't go with the IDQ's. As these are designed to work well with low amounts of power, which I had thought matched your system well.

With that amount of power you're more than likely going to blow them or overheat that amp regardless at what you run them at. You're looking more in the Crystal CMP range of subwoofer power handling arena.

mciampag · 02-10-2005, 06:08 PM

I think he was saying he doesn't want 1000W, but that 1000W amp will give him only 250W per sub if he runs them at a 2 ohm load total. I think that's a very reasonable amount and should match the rest of the system pretty well. You can always turn the bass down a notch or two for normal listening and crank it up every once in awhile if you find the 2 subs w/ 250W each is still overpowering your front stage. I think it's always better to have a bit more than you need, and your system/budget is very reasonable. I'd go for it.

ryuryu · 02-10-2005, 08:00 PM

ok so 2 IDQ 10 (2ohms) hooked up in series/parallel so the total impedance is 2ohms. The subs will be pushed by the Bx1000 which is rated at 700Wx1 (2ohms), thereby each sub will push 350W (max). obviously i will lower the gain so each will be feeling the recommended value of 250W.

Also since I have a dual band pass that I will use in the meantime while I work on making a sealed enclosure. I've never hooked up 2 subs from one terminal so please provide some advice.

I'm assuming that I will lead 2 wire cables out from the power output terminal, one to each sub input terminal. The DVC's will be hooked up to each other/ sub. Again 2 wire cables out from the power input to each corresponding sub output terminal. Ofcourse i'll make sure the connecting between the DVC's are done correctly according to manual.

thanks

thanks

mciampag · 02-11-2005, 06:53 AM

Where do you see that amp puts out 700W@2ohms? Is that the max power rating? If so, forget about it. Use the RMS power rating, that's the only one that really matters. Everything I've seen puts that amp at 500W RMS @ 2 ohms.

That's the wiring diagram you want to use. You have a single (+) and (-) wire going from your amp to the terminal cup in your sub box. From the back of the terminal cup you have 2 (+) and (-) wires. On each sub, connect 1 (+) wire to one voice coil, and 1 (-) wire to the OTHER voice coil. Then use another wire to connect the remaining two posts on that sub. Do the same thing on the other sub. Questions?

ryuryu · 02-11-2005, 10:04 PM

Thanks again. I just found out, through other places that the Bx1000 has 2sets of (+/-) terminals for ease of installation. This would simplify my connection to a dual band pass.

One last stupid question.... if i may.
Amp out put = 500W @ 2ohms.
~each sub puts out 500/2 = 250W correct?

thanks to mciampag and timeracer.

I will begin my internet purchasing this week-end.
peace

TimeRacer · 02-12-2005, 01:59 AM

I've seen two numbers listed for that amp. 500w RMS x 1 @ 2 ohms and 700w RMS x 1 @ 2 ohms. I have no idea which is correct, but even with the lowest of those numbers you're on the maximum RMS for those subs. Which is why I'm still recommending that you jump up to the next power handling step if you want to use that amp. That's if you want this setup to last, I probably recommend going no higher than 90% of the sub's max RMS, and no lower than around 50% of the RMS so you don't underpower the sub.

But yes, if it does output 500w @ 2 ohms you will split the power between the subs.

edit: What did you choose for the front components and have you heard them?

ryuryu · 02-12-2005, 09:49 AM

I know it has been a concern for me as well, so I was also considering the 2 channel ZX6000 (~180 + s/h) which puts out 2X300 @ 2ohms. The only thing is the 2-2ohm DVC's can only be wired up as a 1ohm or 4 ohm.... so then I have to go with 2-4ohm DVC's and hooked them up so each one acts like a 2ohm.

In terms of the Bx1000d, Hifonic's website indicates 700x1@2ohms. If I were to get the 2IDQD2's they would at the MOST get 350 each, which is obviously above the recommended RMS of 250. BUT!!! I can always treat it like, 'I have the power to boom 700Watts, but if I set the gain to max I could shorten the life of the woofers.' ---I know i won't be going crazy with them, but 350 each once in a while shouldn't blow my subs since they Peak RMS is 500.

TimeRacer · 02-12-2005, 10:36 PM

Peak is peak, one "BOOM" that's it. Never look at peak #'s it means nothing really. As it just means it won't shear itself apart if you hit it a few times.

apocalypse · 02-13-2005, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryuryu

I know it has been a concern for me as well, so I was also considering the 2 channel ZX6000 (~180 + s/h) which puts out 2X300 @ 2ohms. The only thing is the 2-2ohm DVC's can only be wired up as a 1ohm or 4 ohm.... so then I have to go with 2-4ohm DVC's and hooked them up so each one acts like a 2ohm.

In terms of the Bx1000d, Hifonic's website indicates 700x1@2ohms. If I were to get the 2IDQD2's they would at the MOST get 350 each, which is obviously above the recommended RMS of 250. BUT!!! I can always treat it like, 'I have the power to boom 700Watts, but if I set the gain to max I could shorten the life of the woofers.' ---I know i won't be going crazy with them, but 350 each once in a while shouldn't blow my subs since they Peak RMS is 500.

the amp output is dependent on to many factors, chances are your cars electrical system, headunit, ect.. will never match what they produce in a lab...

with that said you want an amp that will be more "watts" than your speakers can handle by atleast a hundred watts or so and tune it from there. Then you can run the amp more efficiently by setting the gains lower and it will sound better.

TimeRacer · 02-13-2005, 01:17 PM

[shrug] my amps test sheet shows they're actually 30 watts over what it is supposed to be tested at 12.4v. So I wouldn't always go by that, esp with brands that are known to under rate their amps.