My suspension rant for people who PM me with questions:
This began as an answer to MonStar’s PM:
Quote:
MonStar wrote on 09-14-2003 07:39 PM:
How much is the Mugen Showa though?
And what is your opinion of the Tein Basic?
And turned into this. It was too long to PM, so I’ll just post it, the writing is quick and sloppy, but I think you can handle it:
Mugen showa is around 1300 new, 700 used. Tein Basic isn't worth the cost savings from the SS, because it has the same spring rates without any of the adjustability. And given the harsh ride of teins, you are going to want adjustability.
Your car handles brilliantly from the factory, lots of intelligent people with white lab coats and clipboards worked hard and spent hours pouring over charts of data and analysis to derive the stock suspension so many people throw away like garbage. It's going to take a lot of money in research and development to improve upon this, and that is why I think the cost of the Showas is justified. They are the only aftermarket set for the Prelude that makes sense from a street driven handling perspective. (My reasoning behind this has to do with the fore/aft spring rate balance and the emphasis on firm shock damping rather than firm springs.)
You can throw stiff suspension on any car (Teins) and make is appear to handle well, but there really is a balance that must be found on a street driven car that just isn't addressed well by Teins and other race spec suspension kits. I think that many individuals on PO confuse good handling with stiff handling. There's more to having a car that handles well than just minimizing body roll and stiffening springs. One has to consider departure handling, transitional handling, streetability, and overall balance. If I could do it all over again, I would apporach this balance with the following setup, it seems expensive, but trust me, I spend more than all of this put together trying to figure out what I liked most:
1. 16 inch wheels, with stock sized (or wider) tires, either S03s, Michelin Pilot Sports, or Goodyear eagle F1 GS-D3s. Your car is going to be faster, handle better, and be more forgiving with 16s. Ride quality will also be significantly improved. There just isn't an argument for 17s or, god forbid, 18s other than aesthetics. $500.
2. ST Sway bars, F/R. The most effective handling mod to bring the car towards a neutral balance. Get both bars, it will reduce body roll and improve steering response better than just a rear bar. $250
3. Mugen Showa suspension. New. $1300.
4. Spoon/Neuspeed/JDM Type S Front strut bar. All work equally well, a necessity when stiffening the rest of the suspension. $100-$170
5. Spoon/Tanabe rear strut bar. Again, a good idea when stiffening up the dynamic components of the suspension. (More and more stresses end up transmitted to the chassis with stiffer springs/shocks/sways) $100-170.
6. Tanabe front and rear lower underbraces. You can't have too much chassis stiffness, it is a win-win mod, making practically no impact on ride quality while making a noticeable impact in the solidity of the car. $200
7. SPC Camber kits, all around. Alignment is critical to the proper handling and neutrality of the car, i would run 0 toe up front, slight toe in in the rear, about -1 degree of camber all around, and as much caster in the front as you can manage with the camber kit adjustments and the radius rod shims removed. $300
Total cost to have a prelude that handles better than stock, with minimal compromise to streetability:
$2665 + Install and alignment charges
At this point you should sincerely consider selling the prelude and putting your $2665 towards a RWD car that will handle better at the limit than the prelude ever will, namely an MR2, S2000, or S13/S14.
I don't recommend a particular order to do this in, either. I recommend you do it all at once, because each component you are upgrading is dependant on the rest to work to its maximum potential.
Disclaimer: This advice does not apply to people who AutoX or Road race. Tein lovers, flame away.
__________________
ellerton engrish: "twisties are just as danger"
I would say that most of the money people spend on suspension is wasted.
Unless you KNOW what the car can and cannot do, buying all these mods is a waste of money. I seriously doubt most people push their cars hard enough on the street to justify buying two strut bars, sways, etc.
If you are buying this stuff just to extend your list of mods, or so the car can be "JDM y0" that's fine, but if you really think that slapping some bars on your car will make it instantly handle better, that's a fallacy. Being a good driver is the key.
Right now I have only the Tein SS's and until I go to a racing/driving school or get a few seasons of auto-x under my belt, I know the car can already manuever WAY better than I need it to.
Obrigado and I have always agreed that stiffer suspensions only help you corner better on a dedicated track. I, however, feel that the Tein SS is still soft enough to give you a noticible improvement over stock on bumpy roads. I think that Tein did a wonderful job matching their dampers to the springs, but then I happen to actually like a harsh (but not bouncy) ride.
If the Mugens had been adjustable, I would have gotten them over the Tein, but adjustability was important to me. I have never owned the Mugen so I can't say which is better.
What I can tell you from personal experience is that the Tein SS enabled me to take corners with more control and speed than I did with the stock springs and shocks. I am able to keep dead even with C5 Corvettes on bumpy curves. On a level curve, I was nearly wiped out because the mid 90's Corvette I was racing lost grip and nearly plowed into me.
You can't go wrong with the Mugens, but if you desire adjustibility, I feel the Tein SS are also a great choice. I would definitely NOT use Tein HA on the street. They are WAY too stiff for good handling in real world conditions.
__________________
97 EGP Base 5spd Prelude. Engine: DC short ram, DC SS headers, AEM pulleys, Random High flow cat, Mugen sport exhaust, Apexi VAFC. Suspension: Tein SS, Tanabe front lower tie, Neuspeed front upper strut, Neuspeed rear sway, Tanabe rear upper strut, DC rear lower tie, 17X7.5 5Zigen Typhoons with 215/40/17 Goodyear F1 GS-D3s. Other: Bride Ergo II, Spoon oil cap, Magnecor wires, relocated Odyssey 680 battery, Denso iridiums, Mugen pedals, Mugen lugnuts, shortened shifter w/ Momo airleather, Rotora slotted rotors and Endless NA-Y pads, Goodridge SS lines.
Nice to see that Teins are not THAT bad afterall. The people who have owned Tein Basic seem to think that it's a great coilover setup, just for daily driving.
I have tein basics... yes they are stiff, but I also bought them with track racing in mind. I would really love to do some auto cross events next year, and for me, a stiffer yet streetable was more desirable to me.
For road only purposes, Mugen Showas, hands down... like I've always said, on the road, stiffer is not always better.
As for why I got the Basics over the SS, I got it at cost and it was ridiculously cheap (I'm 18, im a penny pincher) and new.
- mattsy
__________________ '02 Maxima SE '93 Prelude vtec - sold
Originally posted by shik0me I would say that most of the money people spend on suspension is wasted.
Right now I have only the Tein SS's and until I go to a racing/driving school or get a few seasons of auto-x under my belt, I know the car can already manuever WAY better than I need it to.
Excellent point Simon. The amount of ability that the car gained from the Tein SS was amazing. There are times where I'm pushing my limit and it feels like the car still has more room to go. Its scary, but cool.
__________________ Medium Scott - XBox GT: derech0 - 2005 PPW Track Model: 52k Miles - Purchased 6.16.2005 (Hibernating)
Mods: Falken|JWT|Kenwood|MotorDyne|Nismo|Sparco|UR|Work Emotion Tracks run: Beaver Run (PA), Gateway Int'l (MO), Talladega Grand Prix (AL), Nelson-Ledges (OH)
I agree with a lot of what obrigado was saying up until the disclaimer. Some of the mods that obrigado mentioned seems to apply more to those who road race and autox. Strut bars and braces really aren't necessarily for streetable handling.
I agree that you can (up to a point) never have too much chassis stiffeness... however, I feel that the prelude's chassis is more than stiff enough to accommodate simple mods such as the Mugen showas and ST sways.
I agreed totally with obrigado. There is a huge difference in streetable handling performance and race track handling. A great example is the Lotus Elise, terrible and unforgiving to live with on the street but a real precision weapon on the track.
And yes, there is no such thing as too much chassis stiffness.
My preference for 'improved' handling would be
1. Better tires
2. Brace the chassis,
3. Shocks/dampers (slightly firmer in bump and substantially more rebound),
4. Stiffer sway bars
I left out lowering springs because I use my car to go everywhere and the double wishbone suspension already has relatively short suspension travel as it is and wouldn't want to compromise the ride quality too much.
__________________
I you no longer go for a gap that exist, you're no longer a racing driver" Ayrton Senna.
I know there's plenty of times I wish I had the Mugens before the TEIN HA's, but I don't and yes I bought into the more is better at the time. As for handling, with just tires and TEIN's there's NO doubt I was able to push my car further then ever before. However the 'too" stiff argument is valid, there's times were my car actually skips across bumps in turns that a more compliant suspension wouldnt have that problem. I may be an exception to the rule because there were plenty of times I couldve easily died the way I've taken on/off ramps so take it for what it's worth.
Originally posted by AsianPersuasion I agree with a lot of what obrigado was saying up until the disclaimer. Some of the mods that obrigado mentioned seems to apply more to those who road race and autox. Strut bars and braces really aren't necessarily for streetable handling.
Seriously. If you're spending that much money on improving your "street" performance (whatever that is exactly) I think you've got to be crazy.
Originally posted by fmshaw1971 Obrigado and I have always agreed that stiffer suspensions only help you corner better on a dedicated track. I, however, feel that the Tein SS is still soft enough to give you a noticible improvement over stock on bumpy roads. I think that Tein did a wonderful job matching their dampers to the springs, but then I happen to actually like a harsh (but not bouncy) ride.
If the Mugens had been adjustable, I would have gotten them over the Tein, but adjustability was important to me. I have never owned the Mugen so I can't say which is better.
What I can tell you from personal experience is that the Tein SS enabled me to take corners with more control and speed than I did with the stock springs and shocks. I am able to keep dead even with C5 Corvettes on bumpy curves. On a level curve, I was nearly wiped out because the mid 90's Corvette I was racing lost grip and nearly plowed into me.
You can't go wrong with the Mugens, but if you desire adjustibility, I feel the Tein SS are also a great choice. I would definitely NOT use Tein HA on the street. They are WAY too stiff for good handling in real world conditions.
I second that too....I've agreed w/ obrigado too that too stiff isn't good for street...but I don't agree that the tein ss are too stiff for street....HA's for sure, but I love my tein ss
they handle great, take bumps well (they don't bounce down the street like others, they just hit an then settle), and offer a lot of adjustability. I'm sure that the mugen's are great too, but I wanted the adjustability as well, just in case I change rims/tires or body kits etc. for an extra 400 bucks, the mugens weren't worth it to me. if I were really lookin for springs tho instead of coilovers, then I would've gone w/ the mugens, since neither would've been adjustable ::
good info tho obrigado, you hit most of the points well.
obrigado... good points man !!!
I used to have Mugen showa + spoon F & R bars + potenza S03 + ST rear sways... the car handled perfectly and yet maintained practicality(ride height and spring rate)
btw.. My Mugen showa suspension is still available for $700 shipped.....
Originally posted by yield
If you're spending that much money on improving your "street" performance (whatever that is exactly) I think you've got to be crazy.
Guilty as charged.
But....
I think many people discount the value of "street performance." Most of the time spent in your car (if it's a daly driver) are going to be errands and trips around town, and having a car that is more responsive will make otherwise menial trips more amusing and entertaining. Isn't that why we all mod our ludes?
So, to say that all of these mods are useless unless you race, and won't be appreciated unless you race is probably accurate if you are speaking in terms of at the limit handling, but in terms of daily driving I don't think the mods are a complete waste.
In defense of strut bars, they are an excellent mod with basically 0 negative aspects. As you lower and stiffen the car, it becomes important to reinforce the chassis, especially for driving on bumpy, rutted public roads where everything will be recieving a more thorough pounding than stock. I think most people with F/R bars can attest to a more solid, less squeeky, less rattly prelude after thousands of miles on harsh aftermarket suspension.
Furthermore, adding the bars will take out the unpredictable variable of chassis flex, giving the driver a greater feel for the direct interaction of suspension and pavement through a solid chassis. This can facilitate one's growing understanding of their car's handling. Basically, strut bars aren't something you become able to "use" effectively, rather they are a nearly transparent learning aid.
Sways are a different story, as I see it understeer is not a happy feeling and F/R bars is a safe compromise for giving new/inexperienced drivers a more neutral, fun car on the street.
The only item on my list that I really see as being more or less useless to the daily driver are the camber/caster kits, I am experiencing little to no camber wear on my car at the moment, with more than a degree and a half of negative at each corner. Toe settings seem to have a greater impact. Nonetheless, having your car in perfect alignment can only improve the predictability of the car's daily handling.
Cliffs notes...
The way I can justify "wasting" so much money on a street driven car, is that there's a lot more to enjoyable handling than the lateral Gs you are pulling when the car departs from control...these mods will all add to the fun factor of driving the car, regardless of the speed at which one takes corners.
Not trying to attack anyone, everyone has valid points here, just explaining my thinking.
__________________
ellerton engrish: "twisties are just as danger"
Seriously. If you're spending that much money on improving your "street" performance (whatever that is exactly) I think you've got to be crazy.
Why? Unless you have a dedicated track car, you spend 95% of the time on the street anyway. Shouldn't you be enjoying that time to the limit? I have spent that much on my suspension and I have never raced on a track yet (from lack of opportunity not will, however). I guess it depends on where you live. If you lived here, I can promise you that you would want to upgrade your suspension as much as possible because we have some awesome roads. If I lived in a big city with nothing but straight streets, I wouldn't feel the need. I can drive less than 5 miles and find 3 roads that will put any suspension to the ultimate test--as good as any road course.
__________________
97 EGP Base 5spd Prelude. Engine: DC short ram, DC SS headers, AEM pulleys, Random High flow cat, Mugen sport exhaust, Apexi VAFC. Suspension: Tein SS, Tanabe front lower tie, Neuspeed front upper strut, Neuspeed rear sway, Tanabe rear upper strut, DC rear lower tie, 17X7.5 5Zigen Typhoons with 215/40/17 Goodyear F1 GS-D3s. Other: Bride Ergo II, Spoon oil cap, Magnecor wires, relocated Odyssey 680 battery, Denso iridiums, Mugen pedals, Mugen lugnuts, shortened shifter w/ Momo airleather, Rotora slotted rotors and Endless NA-Y pads, Goodridge SS lines.
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