i've been told by numourious people that if i planed on getting forged pistons.. i would need to get the block sleeved.. i've always just gone on that and my searching on po.com has lead me to this conclusion.. our blocks have fmr sleeves and can't be used with forged pistons...why i don't know.. is it a clearance issue or expansion or what.. but i couldn't explain it to an integra owner that has forged pistons running with stock sleeves
then i visit honda-tech.com and tons of people are using forged rods and pistons on stock sleeves.. granted it's in a b18 or b16... now why can't we do the same thing on ludes.. either the h22 or even the h23
are people here running forged pistons and rods without re-sleeving the block?
any help would be apreciated
also.. are pistons in a h23 the same or different then h22.. just wondering cause i want to know if the ring lands will be a big issue on the h23 as it is with the h22
Umm im definatly not a genisus when it comes to this issue, but You can sleeve the prelude block. Im asuming your talking about iron sleeves? Its stronger and better if your going to be running some serious hp. A machine shop can do re-sleeving , you should technicly have that done anytime you take the pistons out and your going to put them in either stock or aftermarket. umm thats about what i know. oh yea, the pistons arnt the same the compresion ratio is a little different between h22 and h23, but they connect to the rods the same.
It has to do that the FRM sleeves are weaker than the pistons and will warp if you use the forged pistons more so than they do under stock internals. This means lost compression, burning oil, less performance, dirty emissions ...
The pistsons will trash the FRM stock sleeves for sure .. over what duration, who knows.. but if your spending the money to do it .. do it right. Also, I beleive expansion is an issue as well ..
And about the B series motors... They do not come with the FRM sleeves. I beleave that they have a stock iron sleeve. That is why they don't need to sleeve as we and the S2000 owners do.
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Originally posted by yohan420 It has to do that the FRM sleeves are weaker than the pistons and will warp if you use the forged pistons more so than they do under stock internals.
What exactly does this mean? I don't understand your statement. Are you saying that the FRM sleeves will warp with forged pistons?
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Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
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B series blocks do not use FRM from what I understand. Whether or not this is the reason why others run forged pistons in B series blocks without a problem is open to debate.
I'm interested in this whole debate. No one has really done a good install of forged pistons in an engine with FRM sleeve liners. By good, I mean, recorded things like; sleeve diameter, sleeve taper, piston diameter, piston to cylinder wall clearance, piston material, oil used, rings used, etc. All of those parameters need to be known before anyone can draw any conclusions.
Expansion could be the issue as forged pistons with a low silicone content require a larger cold piston to cylinder wall clearance that causes piston slap at low temperatures, and if the clearances are too tight, the piston will literally scrape all the oil off of the cylinder wall causing extreme scuffing, if not total seizing of the piston in the sleeve.
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Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
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bascially in an H22...youre going to have to resleeve the block...and thats that...even if our ludes didnt have FRM sleeves...i would still resleeve them when building the motor
if you search on honda-tech, they have alot of threads about the h22 and frm and everything in between..forget about the other engines..you want to know about the h22 or h23...very interesting discussions if youre intrested and want to know more...
wiseco came out with pistons that are able to be used with FRM sleeves...but if i remember correctly...they didnt work as someone with an h22 tried them and i think the results were very good at first but got worse over time....sleeve scoring, severe side-loading and burning oil
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Last edited by MugenPoweredLude : 01-20-2004 at 12:13 PM.
Originally posted by MugenPoweredLude bascially in an H22...youre going to have to resleeve the block...and thats that...
If you had some type of explanation for this statement, you might be more convincing.
Quote:
Originally posted by MugenPoweredLude even if our ludes didnt have FRM sleeves...i would still resleeve them when building the motor
Why? There is no need to resleeve a perfectly good block is you're installing stock pistons. Just a slight hone is all that's necessary.
Quote:
Originally posted by MugenPoweredLude if you search on honda-tech, they have alot of threads about the h22 and frm and everything in between..forget about the other engines..you want to know about the h22 or h23...very interesting discussions if youre intrested and want to know more...
I've read some of the threads on H-T, and it sounds more like people are speculating than anything else. I don't believe anyone over there knows any more than we do over here.
Quote:
Originally posted by MugenPoweredLude wiseco came out with pistons that are able to be used with FRM sleeves...but if i remember correctly...they didnt work as someone with an h22 tried them and i think the results were very good at first but got worse over time....sleeve scoring, severe side-loading and burning oil
However, I don't believe this person has any specs or data on the installation. It could be that the pistons were stock diameter, and when the block was honed, the piston to cylinder wall clearance was out of spec. This would cause excessive piston movement, which would result in the same damage that he showed, AFAIK. Same goes for too tight of a clearance.
Again, I reiterate that no one has recorded the specs on the piston installation, so you canNOT rule out installation as a problem. If a (ricer) shop did the install, I certainly would not rule out installation unless the specs are known. 99.9% of the shops around here can't even be trusted to change oil.
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Billy - 98 Prelude
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yup....i re-read the thread and it seems that people are speculating that the pistons were installed with way to tight tolerances.....he was also on stock sleeves...it didnt say anything about him honing his block...altho he should of...he left it out
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Originally posted by MugenPoweredLude bascially in an H22...youre going to have to resleeve the block...and thats that...even if our ludes didnt have FRM sleeves...i would still resleeve them when building the motor
ok let me rephrase that
if youre going to be building the h22 or h23 for N/A duty or Turbo duty....youre going to have to resleeve the block because of the FRM sleevs...the FRM Sleeves and forged pistons dont go good together
71dsp
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-Anthony- PSN/Xbox Live GT: Evoking1230
2005 EVO VIII-SOLD/R.I.P.
2000 Honda Prelude SH - Gone But Not Forgotten
Originally posted by MugenPoweredLude Click Mepages 5 and 6
Again, proves nothing, IMO:
Quote:
alphajesse
From the looks of the damage, I want to say it was a clearance issue... Probably the builder you used made the clearance a little bit looser than he should have- the skirt shouldn't have been in contact with the cylinder walls. Your pistons were probably rocking in the bores on cold starts.
I agree with this statement.
His reply:
Quote:
h22apwrd95
As far as the clearances are concerned, I can ask the builder, but he has never been really noteworthy of that stuff. I am looking at going with another builder, as the machine shop was not able to tell me the specs. I gave all paperwork that wiseco sent with the product, and from what I was told he said he followed "their" recommendations. Now all I hear on here has me thinking otherwise.
I am still convinced that installation was the major issue here.
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Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
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Originally posted by MugenPoweredLude ok let me rephrase that
if youre going to be building the h22 or h23 for N/A duty or Turbo duty....youre going to have to resleeve the block because of the FRM sleevs...the FRM Sleeves and forged pistons dont go good together
71dsp
Yep, I was just busting your balls.
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Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
#27 PTB NASA TX Performance Touring Racing makes heroin addiction seem like a vague wish for something salty. -- Peter Egan
i didnt say it was meant to prove anything...those pages are where what people need to know are...some people dont want to read thru the whole thread....again...like in my previous post....i re-read the thread....
and indeed it looks like installation error...too tight of tolerances
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-Anthony- PSN/Xbox Live GT: Evoking1230
2005 EVO VIII-SOLD/R.I.P.
2000 Honda Prelude SH - Gone But Not Forgotten
Originally posted by MugenPoweredLude i didnt say it was meant to prove anything...those pages are where what people need to know are...some people dont want to read thru the whole thread....again...like in my previous post....i re-read the thread....
and indeed it looks like installation error...too tight of tolerances
You're too nice to lazy people.
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Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
#27 PTB NASA TX Performance Touring Racing makes heroin addiction seem like a vague wish for something salty. -- Peter Egan
Well, thats why the possibility of being able to use S2000 pistons is exciting. Although to my knowledge, it has not been done yet, but on paper it works. The F20c runs forged slugs in FRM sleeves. F20C slugs in an H22 block develope something like 11.5-11.7:1 compression! Ideal for TURBO Nutz?! NO! But for us Nitrous guys, we may be in heaven. My understanding is FRM is a softer material that won't stand up to forged slugs, but will last longer with stock pistons than a B series will.(My master Tech at Acura has told me that the B18 isn't ALL THAT of a long term motor lke previous honda motors.)
Remember, when the 1st H22 was designed, they had no idea that people would be wanting to run forged slugs The B series has been out since the middle 80's on paper, and late 80's in a car. The H22 was designed to be a superior motor, with some of the B series kinks worked out.
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Do you know the dome volume of an S2k piston? What about compression height? It seems that no one knows this data. I've been told that the wrist pin is 1mm smaller, but that's no big deal with a different rod (i.e. custom). However, one would need to know the compression height to see if adjustments in rod length are needed. What about valve angle? Are the reliefs machined correctly for use in an H22? If the valve angles are not the same, the piston may need to be modified to allow for the proper clearance.
Also, if it has an offset wrist pin, that could throw a wrench into the works.
To my knowledge, no one has adapted S2k pistons to an H22.
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Billy - 98 Prelude
#27 H2 NASA TX HondaChallenge
#27 PTB NASA TX Performance Touring Racing makes heroin addiction seem like a vague wish for something salty. -- Peter Egan
BTW: FRM means Fiber Re-enforced metal, .. i dont know what the fibers are but its not straight steel as would be the pistons .. thats why its not as strong and warps easier, especially when being rubbed by a harder piston some number of times per second..
yohan, the fiber in the Fiber Reinforced Metal is Carbon Fiber.
Neat, huh?
It's kind of a ceramic composite. It's in aluminum.
The reason forged pistons don't work well is like metals don't wear well together. Al pistons on Al sleeves is not the hot combo, so to speak. Since forged Al is harder than the sleeves, if they are scraping (which they shouldn't do if you make the pistons out of the right alloy, and do the clearances right) the piston wins over the sleeve.
Quote:
http://he.honda.ca/models/exclude/s2...escription.aspCompact High-Output Engine Block (return)
The S2000 engine block is a one-piece, open-deck aluminum-alloy die casting. Of special note are the block's FRM (Fiber-Reinforced Metal) cylinder liners cast integral with the block. FRM is a composite material consisting of carbon fibers embedded in an aluminum oxide matrix (aluminum oxide is a ceramic material used for spark-plug insulators). As a cylinder lining, FRM offers several advantages over conventional ferrous-metal liners, including lower weight, faster heat transfer and a greater resistance to wear.
Cylinder bore is 87 mm and the stroke is 84 mm. This results in a nearly "square" 1: 0.96 bore-stroke ratio that facilitates high-rpm performance and still exhibits good torque characteristics at lower rpm.
Quote:
http://www.hondauk-media.co.uk/honda...x/nsx_pack.htmHonda continues to be one of the leading exponentsof exotic materials in automotive applications. The company’s extensive research has brought considerable experience which is brought to bear wherever this can provide useful benefits in terms of enhanced performance and a generally superior product for the customer.
FRM in engine block construction is a perfect illustration of this. During casting, the cylinder block’s aluminium alloy is poured around cylinder cores composed of fibres of carbon and alumina which start to absorb the molten aluminium. Once complete, the cylinders are bored by removing most of the core material. However, the outer extremes are retained leaving a tough, wear-resistant composite cylinder wall, at least 0.5 mm thick, integral with the block but reinforced by the carbon and alumina fibres.
The greater strength provided by this process allows larger bores within the same external block dimensions and bore spacing, and makes open-deck block construction possible. The elimination of the steel cylinder liners makes the 3.0 kg weight reduction possible.
However, adopting FRM means that conventional aluminium pistons can not be used, since aluminium-on-aluminium is not a satisfactory combination for durability; to overcome this, the aluminium pistons are provided with an iron coating.
To ensure a positive seal with the new FRM cylinders, the head gasket is now made of stainless steel.
I would say that if you used a coated forged piston, with correct clearances (go with piston manufacturer reccomendations, or use NSX 3.2L or s2000 clearances) in a high-silicon alloy (reduced expansion, and therefore rocking on cold starts, as the clearances can be tighter) you shouldn't have any problems.
Think about the process of sleeving- it puts stress on the block. The FRM is integral with the block, transfers heat well, reduces friction, and actually was employed to help with block rigidity. I would try and keep it if possible.
my whole deal with trying to figure all this info out is because i'm on a budget build... if i had it my way with the funds... i would do the works and not even look back.. sleeve the block, new pistons, rods, knifeedge the crank, get that heat coating treatment on the valve bottom along with the combusion chamber.. but then reality sinks in and i find myself in this situation
i have 3 preludes
an 01' which i built for show and am now done with
i have a 92' si auto that i did an engine swap in (f22b)
and the engine that i am rebuilding is for a 92' si 5 spd 4ws that i plan on running a 55 dry shot of zex
i just want to make the engine a lil better for a piece of mind when i spray.. cause i've done my research and i know that people blow the engines by not using the n2o correctly.. i know i have to do at least 1 step colder plugs and there are a couple other things that i have in mind such as ignition retarding along with tuning with a s-afc
right now i was goign to do this with the engine
measure all components and determine serviceability, going to need new main bearings, con-rod bearings, all seals, new crank pulley,all new belts, and of course anything else that needs replacing during the way ...
as far as doin anythin aftermarket.. i was trying to figure out how to make the fordged pistons work in the fmr sleeve but that now is clearer to me as a no-no.. then there is my other option to get them coated with some sort of heat dissapation coating that was advertised in import tuner a while back but now i don't even knwo if that'll do anythign for me..
