As some of you have read, I am planning a rebuild on my engine..
What will follow in these next few months are lots of annoying questions from me..
Don't worry I do searches and try not to ask questions that have been answered a million times.. that being said here goes..
Ok going with Forged rod and pistons..
Probably goign with Crower in both cases...
1st question anyone have/heard experience with these components??
2nd question. I have heard about floating pins and whatnot.. what is this, and which do I need to get??
Your piston will most likely determine your rod. For forced induction, I believe the best is crower. For NA, a lighter rod with a little less strength is fine. There is a shop offering custom rods, light and stronger than stock. Importbuilders I believe, I have never bought anything from them, but it won't hurt too much to call.
A floating wristpin is one held in by retainers and isn't necessarily pressed into the piston/rod. The rod and pin move independently from eachother, the pin can rotate within the rod and piston. On the stock H22s, we have a floating wrist pin, yet it is pretty snug with the piston when it is cold. I am assuming the piston expands when it is at operating temps and the pin moves freely.
Your piston will require one of the 2, floating or pressed wrist pins. In either case, there is a rod for you....
Sweet.. the only reason I am going for a "heavier" forged rod is because I plan on adding a Direct port 75 shot of nitrous.. so better safe then sorry..
Although I do plan to bump up the revs to around 9k or so
Anyone have any idea how high I can go safely with forged rods and pistons allong with the crower aftermarket springs and retainers???
Why do all of you want to bump the RPM's First off there's no power up there with any commercially available cams with the exception of the unknown results of the Crower stage 3's. Secondly, unless you're going to get a custom piston/rod done so that you can get the r/s ratio more "ideal" to slow down those piston speeds you're still just asking to tear up your motor. The highest I'd say that you can rev w/o custom parts would be 8200 rpm, 8000 to be safe.
Okay well I am not dying to get to 9k.. its that I heard that Crower stage II's WOULD make power past the fuel cutoff of 7.6k if this is not the case, then I will not bother..
I'd like to jump in on this thread... Since I'm turbocharging my car at 85k miles, and am already planning on Crower rods, new piston rings, and main bearings, while the rods are out, would new valve springs & retainers be a smart idea, or just a nice thing to say I have?? I won't be boosting above 10-12psi. If you can help, I'd appreciate the guidance.
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Anybody want to buy my Lude? (Will sell in either stock or fairly modded trim).
If money is a factor, I'd rather have a Hondata on a stock motor with 10psi. If the block must be done, I'd rather have a Hondata and a bulletproof block. I am sure the stock head can handle 10-15psi without change. You could put lighter SS valves and retainers and have more force without changing the springs and not put more load on the motor that stiffer springs do.
What is your budget? You are going to sleeve the block prior to installing the internals, right?
I don't believe Crower makes pistons (I haven't seen them on their webpage), but I could be wrong.
As for rods, Crower is a very good choice. If you have the money, I would go with Saenz or Carillo. Keep in mind that these two will cost roughly twice as much as Crower, but they are lighter and just as strong.
For pistons, I would do Rollerwave or JE pistons. Keep in mind that when you run a forged piston, you're going to get some additional piston slap (at warm up), so if you're wanting to keep things quiet, a low silicon forged piston is not the way to go. However, forged will be the strongest.
To go to 9K, you're going to need a stand alone ECU along with some serious engine and headwork. I was planning a full engine build up with custom cams, rods, and pistons, and we were only planning on an 8500 limit. The H22 doesn't lend itself to high RPM use. The rod ratio is really bad, and it has a relatively long stroke. If you want to rev high, good springs and retainers are a must, and lightweight valves won't hurt either. Also, if you're going to run that high, it's a good idea to modify the water pump and oil pump to run well at high RPMs.
I wouldn't suggest anything except Honda bearings as well.
As far as the pistons.. I was leaning towards the JE's I don;t think crower makes any, but they do sell Je;s on their site..
As for the whole RPM.. it does NOT sound worth the hassle.. and thanks for the advice on the Valves...
Really I am trying to overbuild my engine.. but I am going forged in the hopes of running some Direct POrt Nitrous.. around a75 shot or so.. I have found a great tuning place right near me with a wideband and all the goodies...
Did some more research today.. found out that I can send my block out to Darton and they will resleave it for 300 bux plus the cost of the sleevs.. not too shabby!
Also contacted PortFlow and got some prices.. YIKES.. 900 bux for "Standard" head work.. QUESTION.. along with my head, what else can I send to portflow... ie Header, throttle body, intake mainifold?? do all these need to be "flowed" in harmony or what?
Are you sure you don't want the endyn's? Real or not, there have been reports and follow-ups on the success of the design. I would go that route if I had any money.... There is even a picture of the burn pattern after much use, it is pretty interesting.
I am thinking an N2O port job is a bit different than a NA port job. Be sure of what you want with the head...... Portflow does very nice work, but for the DIYer...nevermind... N2O is good, turbo is better, hehehe
For pistons, I would do Rollerwave or JE pistons. Keep in mind that when you run a forged piston, you're going to get some additional piston slap (at warm up), so if you're wanting to keep things quiet, a low silicon forged piston is not the way to go. However, forged will be the strongest.
Have you heard anything about Ross pistons? I have never talked to someone with personal experience with them, but the rumors are that they are much more resistant to detonation than JE's. I was going to go with JE's, but I have read a few threads like this one: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=78979
Well like I have said, I am making this car a daily driver and want to tune and build it to be an NA car.. the Nitrous is just a bonus.. so I plan on having the head flowed for optimal NA performance..
I realize that I will not get as much power from my juice with the head flowed for NA.. but I am not trying to get every ounce of power from the Nitorus... its just a bonus to have fun with every once in awhile!
Oh and my other question...
About having the header intake manifold throttle body and head.. do they all have to be "flowed" together?
It's all about combination. If any piece doesn't flow well with the others, you won't get optimal power. It's best to design the headwork around the header, intake manifold, TB, etc. however, this is usually quite expensive, and most people won't do it except on unlimited budget race engines since the time and money for lots of R&D is present.
Originally posted by a1andres About having the header intake manifold throttle body and head.. do they all have to be "flowed" together?
What do you mean by "flowed?" Flow benched? Ported/polished?
As Billy mentioned, the build needs to be tackled as a "unit" and the intake air path needs to be designed around your bottom end and airflow requirements. If you are bumping the RPMs a good bit, you're going to need to open up the manifold quite a bit. The manifold is sized for stock airflow requirements and no more. Keep in mind that for 2.2L of displacement you will need about 310CFM of airflow at 8k RPMS and about 350CFM at 9k RPMs (a substantial increase). That means your intake cross section would need to go from about 1.6" at it's smallest point to about 1.8" or more to avoid a pressure drop, not to mention you might need to run with large valves to support that airflow...
The bottom end geometry will drastically affect this if you decide to go with a different sized rod and custom pistons (i.e. change the rod ratio). The stock setup would require a ****load of head/manifold work to see much in terms of power gains by increasing your rev limit.
Keep in mind that the H22's peak power gains (stock) come at about 7500RPM. There's a reason for that!
Okay so bumping up the revs is not really worth the hassle..
And as for "flowing" I mean I am sending my head to portflow. .and they are gonna peroform a "standard" head job.. is it sufficient to tell them that I have a GReddy header.. thermal exhasut AEM cold air intake.. I am not on an unlimited budget, but I did not know what was standard to do...
I am going to have my throttle body bored out by RC engineering.. so I guess the important thing would be to let portflow KNOW what size my TB will be and the specs of my header and exhaust... along with what I am putting in my bottem end.. yikes this is not easy..
Originally posted by 00G If money is a factor, I'd rather have a Hondata on a stock motor with 10psi. If the block must be done, I'd rather have a Hondata and a bulletproof block. I am sure the stock head can handle 10-15psi without change. You could put lighter SS valves and retainers and have more force without changing the springs and not put more load on the motor that stiffer springs do.
What is your budget? You are going to sleeve the block prior to installing the internals, right?
No, I'm not sleeving the block. It really seems unnecessary, considering that I'm not changing out pistons, just the piston rings, and a low comp head gasket. I will NEVER see 15 psi ... I'm not curious to see what a blown Lude engine looks like.
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Jason (AIM-->JDMSLICK96, or MSN IM-->JDMSLICK96)... For SALE: Recaro SRD Limited Edition seats, VTEC sub enclosure w/ Kicker 6x9 Free Air subwoofer (& free amp). PM w/ offers. Rest In Eternal Peace, Capt Derek Argel, Capt Jeremy Fresques, Pfc Chris Hill, & Sgt John House (all lost to Iraqi conflict).
Anybody want to buy my Lude? (Will sell in either stock or fairly modded trim).
Originally posted by a1andres And as for "flowing" I mean I am sending my head to portflow. .and they are gonna peroform a "standard" head job.. is it sufficient to tell them that I have a GReddy header.. thermal exhasut AEM cold air intake.. I am not on an unlimited budget, but I did not know what was standard to do...
I am going to have my throttle body bored out by RC engineering.. so I guess the important thing would be to let portflow KNOW what size my TB will be and the specs of my header and exhaust... along with what I am putting in my bottem end.. yikes this is not easy..
Do the head/manifold first, giving them your specs on parts and where you want the powerband, or what they recommend/say it will be with their "standard" job. Have them tell you what the TB should be, they should have a good answer based on what they do.
What cams will be going in? They will certainly need to know what pistons will be going in if you are changing them... and the head, manifold, and TB work should reflect that.
Cool.. thanks for all the info.. this is a HUGE undertaking for me.. and I don;t make TONS adn TONS of cash so I am trying to avoid any OH I should have done this or that while I had the engine pulled apart..
I am going with Crower Stage II cams.. and either the JE pistons or the Endyn ROllerwaves... the only thing about the Endyns that scares me is that on their own website the tell you that these are NOT drop in pistons and that they expectt he people that are buying these pistons to be MATICULUS when installing them.. using "clay" checking for clearance.. or something along that nature....
I am having Darton do my sleeving.. would I also have to send them the pistons and rods I plan to use?? man this is not easy!
not to burst your bubble.. portflow is great.. but there really isnt much of a differnce that THEY DO for diffrent set ups.. for example only if your going to use very HIGH BOOST.. then will the really PORT your head.. as has said before.. the porting is not where the power is made.. its in the valve job.. remeber that and as far as valve jobs PORTFLOW DOES SOME OF THE BEST.. but just keep in mind that if you tell them your porting a head for sc or NA its gonna preety similar...
Originally posted by a1andres I am going with Crower Stage II cams.. and either the JE pistons or the Endyn ROllerwaves... the only thing about the Endyns that scares me is that on their own website the tell you that these are NOT drop in pistons and that they expectt he people that are buying these pistons to be MATICULUS when installing them.. using "clay" checking for clearance.. or something along that nature....
I'm sure Larry puts that on there as a disclaimer... since the piston is higher CR but not uniform (flat or domed top) you *would* have to be meticulous and check clearance. You might try and fire off an email to him and see if he can tell you how much lift with stock valves those pistons will allow (all other things being stock). DO NOT buy the pistons and the cams until you know they will work... otherwise you might find yourself with parts you can't use!
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I am having Darton do my sleeving.. would I also have to send them the pistons and rods I plan to use?? man this is not easy!
Just for the sleeving... I wouldn't think so. I would recommend a builder, though... someone who can either do all this or coordinate it. You might see what Larry would charge for the build. Also, I'm not sure what the status is now, but I know of people (hint-hint) that waited for Larry's pistons for quite a while. You might check, they may not be in stock or available for a while.
Not to be rude, but it sounds like you might be in over your head. Are you still in the planning stages right now? You can get whatever cams, piston, and port/valve/head job you want, and you're pretty much guaranteed to make power... but to get the most out of your money and mods, they need to be planned around each other and to work together.
If Portflow only offers an NA/turbo job, I would want to know exactly what they do. With a Stage 2 Crower you will want to open up the intake manifold near it's center, but not much... maybe .1" or so. Most of the work will be cleaning it up, it's pretty nasty to start with. As for valves... stock-sized valves should be more than fine for this application, though radiused or multi-angle would probably be the way to go. I'd suggest radiused if you're on a budget.
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First off there's no power up there with any commercially available cams with the exception of the unknown results of the Crower stage 3's. Secondly, unless you're going to get a custom piston/rod done so that you can get the r/s ratio more "ideal" to slow down those piston speeds you're still just asking to tear up your motor. The highest I'd say that you can rev w/o custom parts would be 8200 rpm, 8000 to be safe. 
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