97Luder and I installed my GCs this past Sunday. I had been running on Neuspeed sport springs with the KONI yellows. The suspension was perfectly quiet before with the sport springs.
Since we installed the GCs though, my suspension creaks over speed bumps unless you creep really slow. First we adjusted the coilovers so there was 0 wheelgap. After a few test drives I decided it would be alot better to raise the car a little. We raised the car about an inch so there was a 1 finger gap between the tire & fender. The car rode a little nicer, but I was getting suspension squeak on bumps in the road (not huge bumps, just normal stuff) and the metal dust boot on the front passenger side would hit the top of the KONIs on hard left turns. I cut another piece off of the dust boot so there was only about 2" of it total and it doesn't seem to rub the shocks anymore, but it rubs slightly against the inside of the springs.
I thought maybe the squeaking was caused by my front swaybar bushings. I had been using a Neuspeed bar up front, but I took it off and put the stock bar back on. I tried cleaning off the bar and bushing, then applying some synthetic lubricant, but that didn't help. Then a few minutes ago I used some o-ring lubricant and it still squeakes over speed bumps. At the same time I applied the o-ring lube, I also raised the car another inch so there is now a 2 finger gap between the tire & fender. After raising the car to this height, there is no more suspension squeak when driving along a bumpy road and there is no more metal/metal contact on the passenger side from the dust boot. However, the front end still squeaks when I drive over a speed bump without holding the brakes all the way across the bump.
I thought it would be the front swaybar making the sqeaking noise (it sounds almost like someone jumping on an old spring mattress, but a lower pitch) since it only squeaked when the front tires go over a speed bump. I also went over one fairly large speed bump and it felt like the car lifted completely off the springs and slammed down when it crossed the speed bump. It was a pretty harsh slam, and I wasn't going but 2mph or so. This is a major worry to me because the Eibach springs with the GCs are so short, there is barely any travel before the car isn't even resting on the spring anymore. Would having the KONIs shortened be the only fix for that?
Notes of interest: I'm using the stock rubber spring seats (that cushion the spring in the tophat).
The out-of-whack camber when I dropped the car really low may have damaged the metal dust boot on the front passenger side (it doesn't come straight down over the shock, I may have f'd it up )
I put synthetic lubricant on the rubber spring seats to no avail. I may try the o-ring lubricant and see if that quiets it down any.
When reading through some old threads about GCs, I saw where Billy or someone posted about using a rubber/urethane sheath to keep the spring centered around the threaded collar, I may look into buying/fabricating some of these.
That is all I can think of right now, I'll post up more if I left anything out.
added: The GCs are currently sitting on the upper front perch and middle rear perch. I may move the fronts down to the lower perch tonight or this weekend and see if that has any effect.
I also plan on dropping the car back down a bit after I get my front camber kit in. Would you guys recommend getting the dampers revalved if I go lower? Thanks!
I had the same problem with mine. What spring rates do you have?
Basically, what was happening in my case was the inside of the spring was rubbing the threaded collar. What I did was trim off the excess portion of the threaded collar. Notice the portion of the threaded sleeve that has been wore away.
Trimmed Down Threaded Sleeves
Before:
After:
I enlarge the shaft hole and trimmed the dust covers down to hold up the rubber 'gasket' between the spring and upper mount.
After having the rubbing issue that Jason speaks up I put the dust boots on a few weeks ago. I now have a monumentally irritating metal on metal squeak even though they are installed per GCs instruction. I think that it's either the dust boot on the shock shaft or the dust boot on the sleeve. Regardless, it's the dust boot rubbing on something b/c I didn't have this issue before. I'm not keen on cutting down the sleeve and think that removing the dust covers and replacing them with a rubber cushion would be a better solution.
Thanks for the pics Jason. I bought mine used so they are worn a little like that. The spring rates are 450 front & 350 rear. I came upon one of your posts and you said your optimal ride height was ~13.5" in the rear and 13.25" in the front, I just measured mine and it is sitting 13" in the front and 13.25" in the rear. I think I might change my mind about going any lower. Performance will probably diminish as well as ride quality & ground clearance. I think that is more important than looks. Plus, I can sell this rear camber kit and not worry about having to buy one for the front!
Did cutting the threaded sleeve completely solve your rubbing issues? Also, could you hear the rubbing or was it silent?
Erik: I'm going to get some rubber inserts and try that first I think. I don't really need the full adjustability that the GCs provide, so I wouldn't mind cutting the threaded sleeve shorter since I'll never have a need to raise the car that high.
In my installation I have the dust covers AND the rubber sleeves. I just pulled the rubber sleeves over the trimmed down dust covers. Basically, the dust cover are there just to hold up the rubber sleeves.
Are your Springs rubbing the Threaded Sleeves? If you let it go for long enough you will just wear through the threaded sleeve until it doesn't rub anymore... until you adjust the height again, then the process starts over...
Originally posted by ludikris I think that it's either the dust boot on the shock shaft or the dust boot on the sleeve. Regardless, it's the dust boot rubbing on something b/c I didn't have this issue before.
Did you trim the dustboots? Could it be the dustboot coming in contact with the threaded sleeve during compression? Under what circumstance does it make the noise?
Originally posted by Mugenlude In my installation I have the dust covers AND the rubber sleeves. I just pulled the rubber sleeves over the trimmed down dust covers. Basically, the dust cover are there just to hold up the rubber sleeves.
Are your Springs rubbing the Threaded Sleeves? If you let it go for long enough you will just wear through the threaded sleeve until it doesn't rub anymore... until you adjust the height again, then the process starts over...
Are you talking about the rubber sleeves that came with the GCs or did you buy/fabricate a set of sleeves? The instructions I got said to use the rubber sleeve between the threaded collar and the shocks to keep the collar centered. It would be nice if they supplied another rubber sleeve to sit between the threaded collar and the spring.
Do you have your spring perch on the lowest setting?
edit: Has anyone used plastic dust boots on the front (like the ones that come on the rear)? I would feel safer knowing that I won't have any metal/metal contact unless there is some specific reason that the front dust boots are metal...
Originally posted by JoeW Are you talking about the rubber sleeves that came with the GCs or did you buy/fabricate a set of sleeves? The instructions I got said to use the rubber sleeve between the threaded collar and the shocks to keep the collar centered. It would be nice if they supplied another rubber sleeve to sit between the threaded collar and the spring.
I'm talking about the supplied rubber sleeves... and yes, another sleeve would have been nice. I'm sure you could fab some up by cutting out of some rubber...
Quote:
Do you have your spring perch on the lowest setting?[/b]
Yes... this allows the thread sleeve to sit lower before the spring rubs.
Quote:
edit: Has anyone used plastic dust boots on the front (like the ones that come on the rear)? I would feel safer knowing that I won't have any metal/metal contact unless there is some specific reason that the front dust boots are metal... [/b]
I slid my dustboots onto the Koni shaft (it stops at the collar on the shaft), then I tighten it down with the upper bolt. I don't see how the dustboot is moving. The only thing it can do is come in contact with the shock housing or the threaded sleeve. That is why I trimmed mine down to about 2"...
Originally posted by azninside damn....that sucks that you gotta do all that work to get them to work fine w/o makin noise....glad I got my tein's
Actually, the specified GC's don't have this problem from what I understand. The GC springs with rates less than 400 lbs/in are shaped kind of like a bell, like this...
/ \
| | - (this is a side view of the spring standing upright)
\ /
to stop the spring from rubbing the threaded sleeve. However when you special order spring rates higher than 400 lbs/in the springs are straight like this...
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because of this the spring is closer to the threaded sleeve which causes it to rub.
Originally posted by JoeW Are you talking about the rubber sleeves that came with the GCs or did you buy/fabricate a set of sleeves? The instructions I got said to use the rubber sleeve between the threaded collar and the shocks to keep the collar centered.
Joe...the rubber sleeves you are describing above are actually o-rings supplied by GC and should only be used if you don't have the Koni adapter thats pressed in the bottom of the threaded collar. The Koni adapter is what will keep the collar centered on the shock.
Quote:
edit: Has anyone used plastic dust boots on the front (like the ones that come on the rear)?
The rear dust boots are actually metal for 2" and are have a rubber cover which extends 3 more inches past the metal.
If you cut the dust boots to 1.5" to 2" and bore out the center hole to fit the larger diameter Koni shaft (per the instructions), then you shouldn't have any problems.
I also cut my threaded collars down. I have never heard a peep out of my suspension since installation over a year ago.
Originally posted by Kool-Lude
Joe...the rubber sleeves you are describing above are actually o-rings supplied by GC and should only be used if you don't have the Koni adapter thats pressed in the bottom of the threaded collar. The Koni adapter is what will keep the collar centered on the shock.
That is what he was describing... now i get it....
Thanks guys, I guess I know what I'll be doing this weekend
Kool-Lude: my GCs came with 4 o-rings and the 4 rubber sleeves. The way I interpreted the instructions was to place the o-ring over the shocks, near the lower perch; then place the rubber sleeve over that (with the o-ring near the center of the rubber sleeve) and then slide the threaded collar over top of that. When I tried to install it that way, the threaded collar wouldn't slide down over both the rubber sleeve and the o-ring, so I put a little electrical tape on the shock and then the rubber sleeve over that so the threaded collar wouldn't wiggle around on the shock. I guess I did that totally wrong though if I'm only supposed to have the o-ring there (which I ended up not using at all) and the rubber sleeves over the dust boots.
Jason: did you secure the rubber sleeves to the dust boots with anything, or do they sit in place by themselves?
I guess I should call Ground Control tomorrow and see about getting the KONI adapter.
I have no idea what you mean by "4 rubber sleeves" (hehe..not like I'm the terminology expert). And, are you sure the aluminum threaded sleeves don't have a black adapter pressed into one end? If not, you should definitely get them. It is a much better design than using those crapy o-rings.
Take a looksee at these threads and it should describe all the parts you need to do the install.
Originally posted by Mugenlude to stop the spring from rubbing the threaded sleeve. However when you special order spring rates higher than 400 lbs/in the springs are straight like this...
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because of this the spring is closer to the threaded sleeve which causes it to rub.
I have that rubbing issue too (as with Jason and Erik, mine are also higher than 400 lbs), but I left it the way it is. I haven't bothered to cut down the threaded sleeves.
Joe, I don't know about Jason, but I didn't secure the rubber sleeves to the dustboots. Looks like Kool-Lude has some good info for ya though (through those threads)...check those out!
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Jacques: just in case you decide to cut the sleeves, it's much easier to cut only 2 rather than all 4. The rear sleeves are 6" long...so I cut both the rears in half and used each 3" cut piece for the fronts. Then just used the original uncut 4" front sleeves in the rear. No rubbing or noise whatsoever. All my theads are completely in tact and usable.
Originally posted by Mugenlude Did you trim the dustboots? Could it be the dustboot coming in contact with the threaded sleeve during compression? Under what circumstance does it make the noise?
The dustboots are trimmed to the GC recommended length (2-2.5" IIRC). The noise is a fingernails on the chalkboard squeak that happens on the smallest bump (and when I get in and ot of the car).
The only way a few of us in NTPOG were able to get rid of all the noise and rubbing was to cut the dust boots down to <2" length and cut the top 3 or 4" off of the threaded sleeves (FWIW). GC's mounting technique IMHO is ass, they need to come up with a better spring cap isolator arrangement that PROPERLY centers things up (without using the fricking dust boot, or providing another).
I think the easiest solution is to make a thicker sleeve with an ID that is closer to the OD of the shock. Additionally, a hard mount that extended slightly inside the top of the spring and mounted within the OEM top hat would help center things up. I picture a hard rubber mount that has the dimensions of the bottom side of the top hat and a deep groove for this new hard mount that I suggested. Physically "tying" the ends of the springs to the suspension would perform the same feat of not letting the spring shift around during handling manuvers.
This is all I can show you until I have time to take it apart tomorrow:
I didn't use the o-rings at all, and I do not have the Koni adapter. I used the rubber collars provided to hold the collar firmly over the strut. I don't have any type of extra rubber sleeve over the dust cover. I also cut my bump stops; I read the threads Jason linked to above and saw Billy recommend against cutting the bump stops. Has anyone had problems with their cut bump stops? If so, I will order some new ones.
First - your dustboot looks as if it is moving around because it's not parallel to the shaft. How did you install the dustboot?
Also, you don't have the GC provided rubber sleeve between the upper mount and the spring. This is the best picture I could find of the rubber sleeves... they are the black round things on the top of the spring...
You stated that you don't have the Koni Adaptor, however, that sleeve that you put between the threaded collar and the shock IS the adaptor.
Originally posted by Mugenlude First - your dustboot looks as if it is moving around because it's not parallel to the shaft. How did you install the dustboot?
Yeah, that is what I was talking about in my earlier statement. I think it got knocked out of whack when the car was too low and the dust boot was hitting the top of the strut. I haven't had a chance to take the assembly apart and inspect it, but I'm guessing the top of the dust boot is just bent and I should be able to beat it back flat with a hammer. I installed the shocks just the way I had them with the Neuspeed springs before (white plastic washer, bump stop, thick washer, dust boot, thick washer, tophat w/rubber bushing). The only exception is that I cut off half of the dust boots and bump stops on all 4 corners.
Quote:
Also, you don't have the GC provided rubber sleeve between the upper mount and the spring. This is the best picture I could find of the rubber sleeves... they are the black round things on the top of the spring...
I bought these used off of Charlie. I got the 4 springs, 4 threaded collars with the adjustable perch, 4 o-rings, and 4 cylindrical rubber sleeves with one slit down the side (to make it easier to slide around the strut, I presume). I don't have the rubber sleeves at the top of that picture
Quote:
You stated that you don't have the Koni Adaptor, however, that sleeve that you put between the threaded collar and the shock IS the adaptor.
The Koni adapter is just a rubber collar that fits around the strut? From the posts I read about it, I assumed it was a replacement piece for the stock perch that had some sort of collar that held the threaded collar in position
Originally posted by JoeW The Koni adapter is just a rubber collar that fits around the strut? From the posts I read about it, I assumed it was a replacement piece for the stock perch that had some sort of collar that held the threaded collar in position
Joe, you're right.
Ok...I just pulled out my GC "Hepful Installation Tips" and now see exactly what you mean by the "rubber sleeves" (or "split urethan sleeves"). Those should work fine, so ignor my previous comments about needing the Koni adapters.
The rubber piece in the upper mount is referred to as the "insulator" or "isolator". I'm not sure how critical it is to have the GC isolator as long as you have the stock ones in its place. I wouldn't worry about it...just experiment with the setup you have now...you can always add them later if needed. Either way, if the stock one is already in the top mount, you shouldn't be having grinding/squeeking sounds coming from there.
As Mugenlude commented...your dust boot is totally wacked. If you can't fix it..I say take it off.
My bet is that all your sounds are coming from the wacked dust boot or the spring rubbing against the threaded collars. Both of these can be fixed.
If you want to talk to someone at GC about your setup, don't just talk with the guys answering the phones. Most don't know sh!t. Ask to speak with Tony and tell him you were referred by other PO members. He knows his stuff and was very helpful when I did my install.
Oh yeah, almost forgot about the bump stops. I cut mine down some (not quite half though). It is not recommended because they actually protect the struts from blowing when bottoming out. The only problem with not cutting them is that it prevents droping real low (slammed) and may affect ride quality some if you always riding on the bump stops. I have about a two finger gap (not slammed at all) and I'm almost riding on my bumps as it is. I guess it all depends on how low you want to go.
well.... i fixed mine just by rotating the GC spring by trial and error and got rid of the sqeaky noise that was comming from the front left wheel....
the front GC is grinded just like in the pictures...
Here is what the front passenger dust boot looked like
Here was the rear passenger dust boot (both sides looked like this)
the only thing bent up on the rears was the plastic shroud. The metal wasn't touched, so I cut the plastic shroud down to the length of the metal boot.
I did as a few people recommended and swapped the front & rear threaded collars, then cut the fronts down a few inches. I went for a short test drive, and everything feels good. There is no rubbing and the noises are gone so far, except for a rattle somewhere in the trunk. I thought I had the jack secured, so I'm not sure what is rattling, but it isn't very loud at all.
one of my rear dustboots looks more jacked up than that, like the metal got pinched by the spring or something. my rears creak all day... my solution is to turn the stereo up at least its not shock knock...
i too have some of the rubbing at the top of the drivers side rear collar, but i think it is from the f'ed up dustboot... i really ought to take it out *shrug*
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at least its not shock knock...
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