Fuel management, injector, and turbo fuel route option ?'s- PLEASE LOOK!(esp. 71&Pure - Honda Prelude Forum

Spocko · 06-12-2001, 10:57 AM

Now that my turbo kit is basically on, I have fuel related questions. I am using a Vortech 12:1 FMU, which I have been told is too rich. I have looked into options and this is what I found...

1. A Vortech recalibration kit for 12:1, 10:1, 8:1 and 6:1.

OR

A Hondata system. This is what they recommend for a turbo OBD-2...
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OBD II: Install at a minimum, a Hondata stage 2 + boost ($690) + an adaptor harness($250) and a donor OBD I ECU($300).

Remove any check valves to the map sensor.

Remove any VTEC controllers and any fuel controllers, additional injectors and injector controllers.

Remove any ignition boost retard devices

Install RC 440cc injectors.

Remove the rising rate fuel regulator and replace with a fixed 1: 1 rising rate regulator set to a base pressure of about 60 psi. Vortech and AEM make 1:1 regulators. This setup should be good for up to 300 HP at the wheels.

To run 550 cc or larger peak and hold (low impedance) injectors, you may need an injector resistor box found in earlier model Hondas. Buy these new where possible. (about $100)
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Okay, so if I were to go with #1(Vortech recalibration kit, I would most likely change it to 10:1 or 8:1 using stock injectors. HOWEVER, I really want to upgrade to 440cc RC Saturated injectors, which I think would allow me to run 8:1 safely(?), and then use my VAFC to lean out my low throttle and idle conditions. Would this be a decent working streetable system, and for how much boost on stock internals?(I was thinking 7-8 daily, 9 MAX psi).

BUT if I go with #2, the Hondata...

Adapter cable -- $250
Integra ECU -- $300
Hondata Stage 2 + boost -- $695
440cc injectors -- $360?
total -- ~$1550+/- $200

It says I would have to get rid of my VAFC(okay no biggie), plus "Remove any ignition boost retard devices"- so does this mean my J&S Ultra 2 Safeguard? I really would rather keep it "just in case" if I could, or are they incompatable with the Hondata? It has a MAP check built into it also, but I believe I can use it without that being connected.

Also using a 94-95 GSR ECU, would I have to get Sat. or Peak N Hold 440cc RC injectors, and do I need a resistor pack with either of them? I totally think that this would be the better route to go if my bottom end was already built, but it is currently stock, and I may never build it up. So this is my delimma- WHICH OF THESE 2 OPTIONS WOULD BE BETTER TO DO NOW WITH A STOCK BOTTOM END- Vortech adj. kit with 440 cc Sat. injectors and lean out using VAFC, or go the whole 9 yards and do all that Hondata system stuff.(Obviously if my bottom was built I wouldn't be asking this ?) Thanks!

DirtyLude · 06-12-2001, 11:35 AM

Read my comments on the Hondata system in this post:
http://www.preludeonline.com/showthr...?postid=208406

I kinda went crazy talking to myself.

Pure Lude · 06-12-2001, 12:02 PM

Spocko,

One problem with hondata is that you have to burn new chips each time you want to change the settings. This gets costly and as dirty lude described in his other post, the stage4 systems costs outweigh the haltech by A LOT. I listed stage 2 because that system is the most basic system with boost. stage 3 just adds more features like clutch cut. Stage 4 is totally tunable. Why did i pick stage 2? because there is a dyno that is near me who uses the hondata system. They have the ability to burn me new chips and also dyno tune for me. So if i ever need to change my settings, i will go to them. I don't plan on altering my settings very much at all once i leave the dyno.

You can still use the J&S, just know that timing will be pulled out from 2-5k rpm and from -20 to 0 mmHG as described in the J&S instructions. I'm stupid, i had the classic version, but recently sold that and bought version 2. classic would work better, but the ultra works still too.

if you're gonna run a stock engine and only 7-10psi, i'd just use the vortech setup. It's OK for now, but i'd keep on saving up for the hondata while you're going around being crazy.

girlRacer · 06-12-2001, 12:13 PM

I don't want to start an argument here, but I wanted to point out some things.

I am pretty sure the Honda ECU (stock, so same as Hondata) compensates for water temp and air temp, but I would have to verify that.

Also, the reason for the OBD2 to OBD1 harness makes the Hondata plug and play. You would hardwire in the Haltech. I think this price becomes a bit offset from the ones you mentioned.

Lastly, a person could go with a Hondata system very cheaply if they had a local Hondata dealer with a dyno. A person could buy just the Stage 2 with boost ($345 + $295) with an OBD1 ECU. They could have their local Hondata tune it. This means not having to buy a stage 4 or the ROM burner/emulator. This is a great concept because most people wouldn't be tuning their system without a dyno anyways.

As stated earlier, the plug and play factor as well as Honda fuel maps to cut down on tuning time plays a big factor.

girlRacer · 06-12-2001, 12:17 PM

About the burning of the chips each time. The chips are erasable and burnable for as many times as you want.

Also, included in the EPROM burner is the emulator. This allows you to make changes without burning chips.

71dsp · 06-12-2001, 12:22 PM

I personally haven't heard much about Haltechs on Hondas, but most of what I have heard about Haltech ECUs have always been positive until this:

http://users.ev1.net/~alltrac/Autos/...echE6KSaga.htm

Of course there are always bad ones in any batch, so take the story for what it's worth.

Also, I would bet that the Hondata uses Honda's calibration factors for cold start, idle, etc. etc.

DirtyLude · 06-12-2001, 12:37 PM

It's important to note that I'm comparing systems feature for feature. Specificly the Hondata Stage 4b against the Haltech. My car is turbo and I'm more interested in the turbo features and mapping so I'm biased towards these features. I'm not in any way trying to say which is better for which people. Obviously if you are not serious into this, a stage 2 Hondata with someone else tuning is easier to do an perfectly acceptable.

Quote:

A person could buy just the Stage 2 with boost ($345 + $295) with an OBD1 ECU.

Like I said, I'm not comparing all Hondata options and all cars OBD1 and OBD2. This is just an extension of the research that I'm doing for my own swap. I have a 98 Prelude (OBD2).

Quote:

Also, the reason for the OBD2 to OBD1 harness makes the Hondata plug and play. You would hardwire in the Haltech. I think this price becomes a bit offset from the ones you mentioned.

Like I stated in the other post, the Haltech should be able to be wired directly into your stock wiring harness. There's no cost to this and I'm not adding that to the cost factor. Someone on the honda-tech FI board even gutted a broken OBD1 ECU inserted the Haltech and wired it to the ECU connectors allowing it to be directly plugged in.

I've seen the Haltech Saga page and I'm glad to say that it's very old and describes problem with an early release. It goes under the 'Support Issue' from my other post.

I'm sure Honda ECU's do change timing and fuel based on water temp and maybe some other factors, but we're talking about programmable engine management systems. Being able to customize this is an added feature, which I think is a big one. And these are not just idle and warmup values.

Spocko · 06-12-2001, 07:55 PM

Yeah, the hell with all that stuff for a stock bottom end, I think I'll go with the Vortech recal. kit for now. Is there any benefit in upgrading to the Super FMU from them?

Also, I am wondering if it will be harder to drive 370cc Saturadted RC injectors on the street with this setup VS the 440 cc ones. Both I am assuming can be leaned out enough using the VAFC to allow for daily driving right?

Smilez · 06-13-2001, 04:43 PM

Yeah, there is some added flexibility in regards to the water temp, etc on the haltec, and I think that it is a -very- capable system, but for me the hondata has a few things I am more interested in.

Portability with maps of being able to start with someone elses. A gui driven tuning and adjustment tool. Being able to start with the stock honda maps. More support from what I can tell.

Most of that talks to the tuning over the haltec, but I think that I can acheive 95% (speclative of course) of what I could with the haltec, with much less time (and cost over the long haul as I rebuild the bottem, etc) put in.

I do think it's nice that it has built in boost control, atleast this is what I read from your messages mark, I don't see it on their feature list. It doesn't have vtec control, atleast that I can tell from their feature list, which I think on a boosted engine would be helpful, so that's kind of a wash as far as my desire to have as few add on computers as possible.

I don't know, I guess to me it's a trade off of the highest level of tunability versus almost all of that tunability but better tuning aids, and for me I'd prefer the later, by the time I rebuild the bottom and run 3" exhaust, I think running 350-400whp will be sufficient on a fwd even with an lsd.

DirtyLude · 06-14-2001, 08:58 AM

I think you really hit on the two drawbacks that I mentioned. Initial tuning/setup, and support. I can understand how these would be very important to some people and I totaly understand.

The Haltech supports both VTEC and the secondary intake butterfly valves. VTEC can be programmed based on RPM and engine load (just like the stock ECU). I haven't done a full comparison of the features of the Haltech mostly because I didn't have it at the time, but the Haltech features which the Hondata doesn't support go beyond just the temp, battery volt, etc.. adjustment stuff. When I write the install article I'll list all of the tuning capabilities it has, including individual injector trim, ability to implement direct coil fire, and boost control.

The boost control kit is basicly just a solinoid that's hooked to the E6K and one of the major features of the E6K that the Rx7 guys use it for is the anti lag feature. You can make the E6K retard timing and dump fuel while at a standstill in order to build boost for a drag launch. The boost control solinoid is an $80.00 option and is directly wired to an aux output from the Haltech.

I got the E6k two nights ago and let me tell you, the mass of wires is very daunting. I've gotten in touch with at least three people who have done install on Honda's before (not H22a's) and the only thing I'm stuck on is the Crank trigger setup for sequential injection, which needs to be setup differently than batch injection. I was going to throw the whole thing out when I found they made the cardinal sin of spelling VTEC, 'VTECH' through the entire manual and the software.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like in your message you think maps arent sharable. They are sharable, you just have to find someone with the same setup as you. I'm going to be getting some B18c maps from someone which will help, but it's very hard at the moment to find anyone with H22a maps. There's now 2 other people with 5th Gen Preludes installing the Haltech system, so hopefully that will change and a few maps will be available.

I agree that you can probably get 95% of the final product from using the Hondata rather the the Haltech. Like I said before, I'm not recommending the Haltech to anyone, since I don't have enough experience with either, yet.

Quote:

so that's kind of a wash as far as my desire to have as few add on computers as possible.

The E6k will almost pay for itself for me, since I'll be selling off my V-AFC, ERL-MF2 secondary controller, MSD BTM, Missing Link... You shouldn't need another computer or controller. I know you can do the same with the Hondata (not incl. the boost controler), I'm just think that more people are going to be going to full standalones when they start looking at the prices of all their piggyback electronics.

Nobody ask for these! The vultures are already circling on all my old stuff. They will be posted on the hondaprelude.to For Sale forum when I'm ready to get rid of them.

Only being home 3 days a week with a pregnant wife means I don't have a lot of time to work on it, but I should have a test harness done up in two weeks or so.

Smilez · 06-14-2001, 09:12 AM

Well, I'm interested to see how it goes for you down the haltech path. The one other advantage I can see with it is you can keep atts, but I'm not sure that's a huge advantage as I'm sure most people going with hondata or haltech are going to run enough boost to invalidate the atts, otherwise it's probably a waste of money either way if your running over 7-9 lbs. BTW, since you are going to all this trouble/cost, do you plan on going higher boost in the future?

DirtyLude · 06-14-2001, 09:34 AM

Yes, I've ordered Crower rods and JE pistons and I plan on a rebuild probably beginning of August. I'll push the boost up as much as I can on the stock bottom end and see if I can keep the EGT's down. I wont be doing any dyno tuning until the rebuild. Anything I did now, I'd have to redo after the rebuild anyway, and I don't want to do it all twice.

You can't keep ATTS. ATTS relies on a data path from the stock ECU. I can leave the stock ECU hooked up and try to run with the E6K and the stock ECU, but ATTS is disabled whenever a MIL code is sent and there's no way I'll be able to have the stock ECU sit there without throwing a MIL code.

A note on the support issue. The Haltech manual looks like it was written by a 12 year old who has just been introduced to WordPerfect 5.1.

I have my fingers crossed for a relatively easy install and no major hurdles. It all looks pretty good right now, we'll see how it goes two weeks from now when I try and fire the car up.

DirtyLude · 06-14-2001, 10:01 PM

Just a little update. My E6K is in my checked bag and seems to be in Air Canada la la land. Air Canada lost my bag. The one time I check the thing and they screw it up.

Hopefully it'll be picked up tomorrow. At least I still have the manual, I can map the wires.

Pure Lude · 06-14-2001, 10:26 PM

How are you going to hook up the haltech?

are you going to get some dummy connectors (like the ones used to hook up the fields unit w/o splicing)?
or are you just going to hack away ?

I'm curious, how are you going to start your initial fuel / spark ? i don't know diddly squat about that stuff really (as pretained to software mode)....will getting it to idle be hard?

I know that an integra ecu can idle and run an h22a, and if thats the case, you can talk to the honda-tech FI board...one of the guys can give you a start up file that will get you moving...

Tim

DirtyLude · 06-15-2001, 07:02 AM

Actually I sent out a flurry of Please Help! e-mails and I'm in touch with 4 people who have installed the E6K on Honda's. I'm going to be getting some turbo B18C maps that should help me out to get a starting point.

As for the wiring. For the test harness I'm just going to sodder solid copper wire to the ends of the haltech wires and insert them into the engine harness. I'll look into buying a fried ECU so that I can make it plug and play, but I don't know if I'm going to be able to find one.