Jordan_4WS

To start off, when should I get an allignment? I know whenever I change tires. Ialso know people say whenever you modify your suspension. Why is the later the case? With the exception of changing struts or springs (affecting caster and camber), how would modifying other suspension parts affect alignment? Will change of a sway bar, adjusting steering rack stiffness or something of that nature affect my alignment?

Next, the actual alignment. On a prelude, caster and toe-in/toe-out can be adjusted, right? How does this work, they just zero it in or should I have it set a certain way to affect handling?

Then we have camber. I heard camber cannot be adjusted on a prelude, is this correct? The issue is that I have,what appears visually, to be some positive camber on my front tires. Therfore is there no way to zero it out or get some negative camber without dropping the car (which I intend to do). Also, lowering a car will increase negative camber, at what point should I get a camber kit? With a camber kit can I increase negative camber, or only zero it out?

I know I have many questions shooting from all directions, but I just have so many missing pieces in the alignment puzzle.

Thanks, Jordan

__________________
1999 Prelude Base (daily driver)
1992 Prelude Si 4WS (broken)

"One day at a time."

marcucci

No. Whenever you do something to change it.

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I also know people say whenever you modify your suspension. Why is the later the case? With the exception of changing struts or springs (affecting caster and camber), how would modifying other suspension parts affect alignment? Will change of a sway bar, adjusting steering rack stiffness or something of that nature affect my alignment?

Removing/replacing struts or springs changes the position of the strut/spring with relation to the rest of the suspension (though slightly). It's not "critical" but it can change the alignment slightly (on a strut-based suspension with no upper control arm, it is VERY critical... but the 3g and up doesn't have this).

Sway bars, the steering rack... no affect on this.

One of the reasons people say to get your alignment done after modifying the suspension is that many Japanese vehicles are out of spec new, due to all the shipping and bouncing they go through (usually strapped down in a ship). I don't think people realize that an alignment when new is a good thing, to make sure everything is in spec.

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Next, the actual alignment. On a prelude, caster and toe-in/toe-out can be adjusted, right? How does this work, they just zero it in or should I have it set a certain way to affect handling?

Someone will have to check my facts, but I believe that the 3g is all adjustable (camber, caster, toe), the 4g is adjustable with camber and toe, and the 5g is adjustable with just toe. The caster on the 4/5g is adjustable via shims (on all but the Type SH). You cna remove 1-2 shims stock to pick up a degree or so of caster (but you need to machine the radius rod to get more). Come to think of it, I think on the SH caster is adjustable via an eccentric bolt/nut.

You can change the alignment to affect handling. Slight toe-out in back is good for oversteer and can help out a lot in an autocross. Toe-in and caster up front will aid in turn-in. Increasing negative camber can improve grip and tire wear. You really need to have a characteristic you want more or less of, though, when you go in.

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Then we have camber. I heard camber cannot be adjusted on a prelude, is this correct?

I thought it was slightly adjustable on the 3/4g. I know there are plenty of kits to make it more adjustable.

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The issue is that I have,what appears visually, to be some positive camber on my front tires. Therfore is there no way to zero it out or get some negative camber without dropping the car (which I intend to do). Also, lowering a car will increase negative camber, at what point should I get a camber kit? With a camber kit can I increase negative camber, or only zero it out?

What do you want to do with the car? If you want to track or autocross much, I'd just say leave it. You will want to get the positive camber out and go slightly negative, but if you lower, the negative camber will be a good thing (racing). For drag you will want 0 camber for maximum grip.

Negative camber (and positive) will wear tires on the street. It will improve handling but unless you drive very aggressively, you'll notice increased wear.

Jordan_4WS

Handling is important. I would like to do some autocrossing and I like to get some canyon runs in. This is also my daily driver. What range of negative camber will increase grip without wearing tires too much? Also should I mess with the toe, or just leave it zeroed since this is a daily driver?

Thanks so much,
Jordan

__________________
1999 Prelude Base (daily driver)
1992 Prelude Si 4WS (broken)

"One day at a time."

marcucci

I would be concerned if you really do have positive camber in front and get that fixed ASAP. Camber that bad would indicate suspension damage to me.

For daily driving... it depends on how aggressive you are, and how much autocrossing or whatever else you do. If you put 500 miles on your car a week, mostly highway, anything beyond .5 degrees will wear noticeably. For that kind of street driving you basically will want as close to zero as you can get.

For aggressive driving or a LOT of autocrossing, you can get away with as much as 1 or 1.5 degrees of negative camber and not experience uneven wear. In fact, when I had my Prelude and ran 1.5 degrees of neg. camber, I still wore the outside edges. I drove very aggressively and primarily on the track and autocrossing. I probably could have used another .25 or .5 degrees up front.

The 4th/5th gen Preludes usually run 0-.5 degrees negative stock and usually increase .75 or so degrees with every inch of lowering.

Tola

Yeah that's correct. From the pic in your sig, it looks like your upper control arm is bent. One of my wheels look exactly like that. I'm installing my new upper arm this week.

__________________

-94 VTEC
-98 M3

Jordan_4WS

I had gotten in an accident, with alot of suspension damage to that wheel. With the uper control arm being bent how hard is it to replace the upper control arm and how expnesive are the parts?

Thanks, jordan

__________________
1999 Prelude Base (daily driver)
1992 Prelude Si 4WS (broken)

"One day at a time."

marcucci

I can almost guarantee you that if the camber is that bad you need to replace everything on that side. No one thing gives and you've likely damaged (to some extent) everything. Your best bet would be to hit a yard and get the entire side of a car that was hit on the other end or other side.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com

From this pic:



I would suggest buying
008 ROD, R. FR. RADIUS 29.33
009 ARM COMP., R. FR. (LOWER) 80.10

And from this one



I would suggest buying
006 ARM ASSY., R. FR. (UPPER) 122.97
002 KNUCKLE COMP., R. FR. (ABS) 199.84

In that order (you might try buying parts until you get the alignment in spec. Your handling must be pretty ****ty right now!

Do a search on posts by me containing "subframe." You have likely shifted yours and it will need to be loosened and recentered to get even camber on both sides.

You might not need to replace all of these, but you will likely have to do one or more. The ordering has been my experience as to what bends and what's most likely to be bent on yours.

altiain

Hey Todd, you might want to double check those recommendations. Toe-out at the rear in abundance can lead to uncontrollable snap oversteer, and moderate amounts of toe-out in the rear will only cause you to scrub tires. Toe-in at the rear can be useful in rwd cars to help counteract oversteer, but I would probably recommend zero rear toe or a little toe-in for a fwd car. Also, don't forget that all four wheels will toe-out slightly from their static settings once the car is actually in motion.

As for the front, toe-out is what will give you faster turn-in response, although too much toe-out will cause the car to "wander" at freeway speeds.

Just a little advice from your friendly neighborhood alignment junkie.

__________________
Iain

'99 Miata Sport - #75 C Street Prepared autox/track toy and now daily driver!



Racing is a disease whose only known cure is poverty.

marcucci

Oh, thank you, Master of the Miata. I stand corrected.

Jordan_4WS

Im at a complete loss right now, because I had a body shop fix everything (through insurance). Iwas hoping I just got a bad alignment rather than a bad repair job. Maybe I should start off that lifetime alignment now to see what the numbers are. By getting the alignment results, can that be any inference as to what the problem is?

Thanks, Jordan

__________________
1999 Prelude Base (daily driver)
1992 Prelude Si 4WS (broken)

"One day at a time."

altiain

Your usual cheerful self today, aren't you?

Don't hate me because I'm right, Todd - hate me because I'm beautiful.

__________________
Iain

'99 Miata Sport - #75 C Street Prepared autox/track toy and now daily driver!



Racing is a disease whose only known cure is poverty.

marcucci

I can tell you from looking at the car that you have positive camber, and that something is wrong. The shop must not have replaced everything, sorry.

There's no way to really tell by looking. That's so bad, though, you might be able to. Best bet is to see if you can get a list of what was replaced and find out if anything was missed... anything missed would be the primary suspect as far as I'm concerned.